Shall we rescue another eBay mess? Seiko 6309a.

[lexacat]

Fortunately I bought a load of restore/repair movements, because I've already lost 2 diashock springs. One literally disappeared from the safe spot I had it sitting, and the other disappeared through a wormhole when it launched itself off the movemement. Otherwise I've successfully removed/reset these (diashock) springs easily a dozen times now with the tweezer method.

I'm still waiting on a new MS for this project. Considering how much I paid for the thing I would hope it's here pretty soon. I'd like to be wearing this watch by the weekend.

I'm also waiting on GS Hypo so I can fit some glass and complete a couple other rebuilds too, but I don't think I'll see that for another month.

Honestly, waiting for parts/materials is the absolute worst part of this hobby, next to paying for parts/materials.

[SimonJ]

4 hours ago, lexacat said:

Fortunately I bought a load of restore/repair movements, because I've already lost 2 diashock springs. One literally disappeared from the safe spot I had it sitting, and the other disappeared through a wormhole when it launched itself off the movemement. Otherwise I've successfully removed/reset these (diashock) springs easily a dozen times now with the tweezer method.

I'm still waiting on a new MS for this project. Considering how much I paid for the thing I would hope it's here pretty soon. I'd like to be wearing this watch by the weekend.

I'm also waiting on GS Hypo so I can fit some glass and complete a couple other rebuilds too, but I don't think I'll see that for another month.

Honestly, waiting for parts/materials is the absolute worst part of this hobby, next to paying for parts/materials.

It's all a game of patience

[Waggy]

On 2/9/2023 at 5:33 PM, lexacat said:

well, of the 3 I've bought,

• 1 had a movement that has so far kept great time and been relatively bulletproof.
• 1 was missing movement spacer.
• 2 had dials glued down.
• 2 had hands in terrible condition.
• 2 were missing dial spacers.
• 2 movements had broken jewels.
• 2 had individual parts that didn't match the movement (7019 mainplate in a 7009, and 6319 barrel bridge in a 6309).
• All 3 had badly glued in, ill-fitting crystals.
• All 3 were not water resistant, to the point they would condense in the slightest humidity.
• All 3 had movements, dials, cases that were mismatched.
• All 3 had decent balances.

I'd say it's a complete crapshoot, but you're not getting anything great.

It's probably better to buy a job lot of 7009a movements and a nice aftermarket case and bracelet, spacers, and gaskets.

Where is the best place to buy aftermarket 7009A cases?

[lexacat]

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

Where is the best place to buy aftermarket 7009A cases?

The one on my wrist right now came from Ali express, it was a dial, hands, case, bracelet combo for about $40aud. It's actually okay but the bracelet is a bit cheap, bending at the end links. Otherwise you might be able to get a nice original case from speedtimerkollektion.com 

I'd be happy to hear of anyone else has a line on some good 7009a cases. 

3 hours ago, SimonJ said:

It's all a game of patience

So you're saying watchmaking... takes time? 

[SimonJ]

1 minute ago, lexacat said:

The one on my wrist right now came from Ali express, it was a dial, hands, case, bracelet combo for about $40aud. It's actually okay but the bracelet is a bit cheap, bending at the end links. Otherwise you might be able to get a nice original case from speedtimerkollektion.com 

I'd be happy to hear of anyone else has a line on some good 7009a cases. 

So you're saying watchmaking... takes time? 

It's an illusion

[Marc]

20 minutes ago, SimonJ said:

It's an illusion

Lunchtime doubly so....

[lexacat]

I hate this.

 

 

$60 straight down the toilet. And not only that, the mainspring was an ETA 2892 the whole time, it just had a sticker over the label. 

I realised I'd put the arbor in upside down, and when attempting to remove it the mainspring just... broke.

Another cuple of months of waiting, but at least now I know I can buy 2x ETA mainsprings for half the price this cost me.

Edited February 26, 2023 by lexacat

[Birbdad]

6 hours ago, lexacat said:

I hate this.

 

 

$60 straight down the toilet. And not only that, the mainspring was an ETA 2892 the whole time, it just had a sticker over the label. 

I realised I'd put the arbor in upside down, and when attempting to remove it the mainspring just... broke.

Another cuple of months of waiting, but at least now I know I can buy 2x ETA mainsprings for half the price this cost me.

Wait the seiko had an eta mainspring in it? Also it's not super cheap but i saw two complete barrels for your movement on sale on ebay. one is NOS. It's from thailand, make of that what you want. Iv'e heard people say thailand is like india, a country to best avoid buying watch stuff from due to rampant fakery or general jankyness.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Birbdad

[lexacat]

The keen eyed will notice another thing, I'm pretty sure the MS is backwards. I bought a "6309" mainspring, and installed it with the painted side of the retainer up as you should, but I'm pretty sure that MS is backwards... which would make sense if it's a re-labeled 2892/2 mainspring, as those wind the other direction. I'm now very confused, but another post on this forum points out the correct direction, which is not what I've got..

@Birbdadwell, they use 6309a mainsprings, but it turns out an ETA 2892/2 MS installed upside down is perfect for this movement. So that saves a bit of cash as from my searching online 6309s MS's are as rare as unicorn poop.

[Birbdad]

15 hours ago, lexacat said:

The keen eyed will notice another thing, I'm pretty sure the MS is backwards. I bought a "6309" mainspring, and installed it with the painted side of the retainer up as you should, but I'm pretty sure that MS is backwards... which would make sense if it's a re-labeled 2892/2 mainspring, as those wind the other direction. I'm now very confused, but another post on this forum points out the correct direction, which is not what I've got..

@Birbdadwell, they use 6309a mainsprings, but it turns out an ETA 2892/2 MS installed upside down is perfect for this movement. So that saves a bit of cash as from my searching online 6309s MS's are as rare as unicorn poop.

Ah, well i the way i sum up learning this discipline is it's a field of landmines you gotta cross. Once you learn where the mines re it's not that hard. 

To learn that though you gotta step on a whole bunch haha. You can probably now advance a few feet into the minefield

Edited February 27, 2023 by Birbdad

[SimonJ]

Before you take things apart take photos for reference.

And yes all Seiko mainsprings I know of the mainsprings are handed the opposite to the Swiss stuff.

[aac58]

3 hours ago, SimonJ said:

Before you take things apart take photos for reference.

And yes all Seiko mainsprings I know of the mainsprings are handed the opposite to the Swiss stuff.

Seiko have movements with right handed MS (70xx, 66, 6602 for example) and left handed (61xx, 63xx for example)

[Birbdad]

15 minutes ago, aac58 said:

Seiko have movements with right handed MS (70xx, 66, 6602 for example) and left handed (61xx, 63xx for example)

Wait i thought we were just discussing in my mainspring winder thread that the 7s26 and 7006 are left handed?

[aac58]

9 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Wait i thought we were just discussing in my mainspring winder thread that the 7s26 and 7006 are left handed?

7S26 and 70xx mainsprings are right handed, so they need a left handed winder as we said in that thread. Keep in mind that when you push the spring from the winder to the barrel it gets flipped upside down and get installed the other way round.

Edited February 27, 2023 by aac58

[Birbdad]

15 minutes ago, aac58 said:

7S26 and 70xx mainsprings are right handed, so they need a left handed winder as we said in that thread. Keep in mind that when you push the spring from the winder to the barrel it gets flipped upside down and get installed the other way round.

Ok, I get it. Man that's unintuitive haha. The right handed mainsprings need left handed winders. I got it!

[lexacat]

I do not have ANY luck with mainsprings. 

I genuinely do not understand how you all manage to get new mainsprings into barrels. The 2x new 2892 springs turned up, and I couldn't get either to pop out of the retainer without exploding everywhere. No matter what I tried or how careful I was, trying to push them out of the washer they would go sideways enough to blast out.

I tried pushing out with the flat side of my tweezers, and also gently targeting the outer most rings with the tweezer tips. 

I'm now 3/3 for new mainsprings exploding out of their retainers.

Then I managed to absolutely mangle the first one in my winder, it was so tight on the winder arbor that it turned into a birds nest trying to extract the handle. I persisted but eventually destroyed it beyond use.

The second MS I managed to get wound and installed into the barrel, but there's a distinct "click" of the arbor not engaging with the hole in the MS when winding it via the ratchet screw. No idea why to be honest, but I've put it in the watch anyway. I'll look into replacing it in the future.

I've got the movement to the point of having the motion works installed, balance running and balance jewels oiled. Only lost one diashock spring this time.

This week I'll complete the calendar and automatic works and get it all cased up, regulated, and on my wrist. Hopefully.

Edited March 13, 2023 by lexacat

[rossjackson01]

Lexacat. I know your pain

[Waggy]

On 3/13/2023 at 11:00 AM, lexacat said:

get it all cased up, regulated, and on my wrist

This is probably the bit I have come to hate most in Seiko re-builds, you need to be an octopus to manage the dial spacer and tightening the dial feet at the same time - and then realise that you have put it upside down (again...), take off the hands without scratching the dial and turn over the dial ring and replace the hands without scratching the dial, then realise it was right the first time?!?!?...can anyone remember which way up those #$#@$ things go?!?! Then there is the case adapter/spacer which spins around on you when you aren't looking and you have to coax it back so the winding stem will fit in... all the time that dial is slopping around and scraping under the crystal and bending those hands.... then you realise there is a spec of dust under the crystal and you have to start again .... finally its in, and you try the hands and realise that the dial feet are tightened too tight and are impeding the date/day disc from spinning properly ..... I could go on.....

Finally it's in... and working, but with all the messing around above you're always second guessing if you really got it right... and the rattle tells you no........

[lexacat]

Wow, it's been a while since I started this!

In the intervening months I've still been active in this hobby. This particular watch continues to be a ridiculous journey in discovery and spending.

It turns out that "6309 turtle" case I bought was specifically designed for the newer 4R (NH) movements, so the 6309 would not in fact fit in it. Also, the case had a slope in the crystal which annoyed me greatly, it did not sit flat. I ended up pulling the case apart and discovered it's because it's just cheap garbage, the plastic "gasket" for the crystal was poorly manufactured.

I managed to destroy the cheap crappy bezel when removing it (managed to bend it), so the whole case is completely worthless to me now. I did learn that I need a proper bezel remover, so one of those is on order now. Of course, by that stage I'd already bought an NH36 and all the accessories to fit in that case, so I needed a new case to fit that movement. 

It was at this point that I discovered the NH series comes in 3, 3.8, and 4.1 crown configurations. I discovered this by somehow managing to purchase the exact wrong thing every step of the way. I now have a bunch of various cases, dials, and hands to fit all configurations of the NH36 movement.


The one I was most excited about was a Tuna style case, but it leaks like an absolute seive. 

I'm going to have to work out how to remove the outer part of the case so I can get the bezel and crystal out and check/install gaskets, as water goes straight through the crystal it seems.

These two I'm quite happy with, especially the "Red Special", being the giant Brian May fan that I am:

There's also a case with a GMT bezel that I bought by accident, one day I might get an NH34 to fit into it.


In the meantime, the 6309 is not dead! The movement came together great and works really well. I bought a new crystal for the original case I had, but managed to smash it to pieces and also break the plastic seal. I can get another crystal, but not another seal, so that case is going to sit in a storage box forever.

I've just bought an old beat up 6309-7040 case with movement, and some bit and pieces to fix it up, so hopefully in another month I'll have everything I need to get a working vintage 6309-7040. 

[lexacat]

Okay, we're officially done! For now..

The 6309-7040 turned up, and there wasn't a lot worth rescuing on it. The case, crown, and casebook are in okay condition, but a lot of shallow tool marks on the caseback. The dial was aftermarket and the hands had barnacles on em.

I bought a new crystal replacement kit and a period correct bezel, plus all required gaskets. I've shoehorned in the 6309 movement that I'd previously rebuilt along with a new dial and hands, plus waffle rubber strap.

At the end of the day, not a lot of that original eBay watch made it into this, but there are some parts in there. This ended up costing an absolute mint, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't worth it.

The amplitude for this movement absolutely sucks (~190), most likely because I made a complete dogs breakfast of the mainspring install. I've been practising, and have some more 2892 mainsprings on the way, so I'll do another service and see if I can get the movement working better in the future.

But for now... we're done.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by lexacat

[rossjackson01]

1 hour ago, lexacat said:

The amplitude for this movement absolutely sucks (~190), 

Ha! You don't know how good you are. My normal with Seiko seems to be 140 to 150. They run ok, but obviously I still need more practice, practice...practice....practice...pr. Well, you know what I mean.

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Ha! You don't know how good you are. My normal with Seiko seems to be 140 to 150. They run ok, but obviously I still need more practice, practice...practice....practice...pr. Well, you know what I mean.

Quick question Ross, yours are keeping reasonable time or you would have mentioned otherwise. How long do they run for after you have set them down without moving  after a full wind up or a good couple of minutes hand rotor swirl. 

[rehajm]

3 hours ago, lexacat said:

Okay, we're officially done! For now..

The 6309-7040 turned up, and there wasn't a lot worth rescuing on it. The case, crown, and casebook are in okay condition, but a lot of shallow tool marks on the caseback. The dial was aftermarket and the hands had barnacles on em.

I bought a new crystal replacement kit and a period correct bezel, plus all required gaskets. I've shoehorned in the 6309 movement that I'd previously rebuilt along with a new dial and hands, plus waffle rubber strap.

At the end of the day, not a lot of that original eBay watch made it into this, but there are some parts in there. This ended up costing an absolute mint, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't worth it.

The amplitude for this movement absolutely sucks (~190), most likely because I made a complete dogs breakfast of the mainspring install. I've been practising, and have some more 2892 mainsprings on the way, so I'll do another service and see if I can get the movement working better in the future.

But for now... we're done.

 

I had no experience with Seiko and bought one to fix up for a nephew who needs a durable watch. I didn’t pay a fortune but still felt taken a bit…

There is so much Franken it’s hard to say what it actually is…

…and don’t feel bad about the mainspring, you’re supposed to replace the barrel complete according to Seiko, right? I botched mine, too. The springs are so soft, worse than a cricket alarm spring. My movement is waiting in the tray for the Cousins package to arrive…

Edited September 25, 2023 by rehajm

[rossjackson01]

50 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Quick question Ross, yours are keeping reasonable time or you would have mentioned otherwise. How long do they run for after you have set them down without moving  after a full wind up or a good couple of minutes hand rotor swirl. 

Full wind, 40 hrs. Rotor 100 shakes to what I think is full, 40 hrs. 

[lexacat]

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

I had no experience with Seiko and bought one to fix up for a nephew who needs a durable watch. I didn’t pay a fortune but still felt taken a bit…

There is so much Franken it’s hard to say what it actually is…

…and don’t feel bad about the mainspring, you’re supposed to replace the barrel complete according to Seiko, right? I botched mine, too. The springs are so soft, worse than a cricket alarm spring. My movement is waiting in the tray for the Cousins package to arrive…

That looks a lot like a 6309-7040 case with a cheaper 7290 caseback. Hard to find a 7040 caseback on it's own without buying the whole watch these days, and they are expensive. The one I'm sporting now was €200 for a non-runner movement with aftermarket dial, but all matching case parts. Add on for dial, hands, gaskets, crystal, strap, and it's around the €300 mark.

I couldn't buy one in the condition this is now in for €300 though.

And you're right, the 6309 was meant to be serviced with a barrel complete replacement, unfortunately not really an option these days. I will say, they're a sight bigger and easier to manage than 7009/7s26 mainsprings though...

EDIT: If he doesn't care about it being a 7040, you could probably sell that case on eBay and it would cover the cost of a parts matching 7290 from SpeedTimerKollection, for example:
https://speedtimerkollektion.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=109893

It's the same 6309 movement, just need to do the service/fix and replace the bezel, gaskets, etc.

3 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Ha! You don't know how good you are. My normal with Seiko seems to be 140 to 150. They run ok, but obviously I still need more practice, practice...practice....practice...pr. Well, you know what I mean.

Agh, yeah, it's been a struggle for me. I've gotten the hang of getting bridles into the winder now, as well as releasing into the barrel. You don't push the mainspring out, you get it flat on the bottom of the barrel then pull the sleeve of the winder up.

Still no luck getting new mainsprings out of retaining washers though, but I'm going to try and push out with a winder next time.

Sounds like you're getting good timekeeping and reserve with the low amplitude though. My 7009a is at around 160 and manages to lose a couple of minutes a day despite being tuned in to +/- 1s with 0.1 beat error...

Edited September 25, 2023 by lexacat