Help identifying jewel type in Elgin 18s movement

[mbwatch]

Can someone help me understand which type of jewel setting I'm looking at in this Elgin 18s grade 146 mainplate? Reading the list of setting types over at Pocket Watch DB, I am unsure whether this is a burnished setting or a friction setting. I have a broken pallet pivot jewel I might take a stab at replacing, but I own no jeweling or burnishing tools and what I need to buy will depend on what setting I'm facing. (It's also possible this task is outside my skill level and I should set it aside for now. The watch runs well as long as I don't move it around too much). Unfortunately my broken jewel is on the mainplate, while the fullplate cover/bridge uses easy to remove screw settings instead.

 

If these are friction fit settings, is it possible to source replacements other than from a donor movement? Fabricating a setting on a lathe is out of the question for me right now. I think Otto Frei may stock a plain jewel without setting that could be burnished in. And which direction would they push out - outward through the dial side or inward?

This is the train side, I think the jewel is set in a setting that has been pressed into the plate.

And from the dial side (not taken with magnification) the ring around the jewel slopes inward:

 

[JohnR725]

I seem to be suffering reading skill issues because which tool is this now? I'm guessing perhaps it's the pallet fork the lower pallet fork jewel..

iin any case whatever it is you can look at the link below and see what the part number is not based on the part number we can look up and see if it's a jewel in a setting or what it is.

tthen the problem with an 18 size watch is it's an older watch so the older watches things were done a little differently than a newer watches. As you've noticed the watches visible plate has nice jewels in settings that screw in on the other side they are burnished in and I'm guessing it's burnished into the main plate I don't think it pushes out but once we figure out what it is we look on the parts list and see of in figure that out.

17 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I think Otto Frei may stock a plain jewel without setting that could be burnished in.

ideally when you're burnishing in a jewel it should be a jewel specifically designed for them. Otherwise you can have a tough time getting the metal to actually burnish over the square shoulder of a modern jewel.

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/Script_Find_Grade.php

 

[mbwatch]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I seem to be suffering reading skill issues because which tool is this now? I'm guessing perhaps it's the pallet fork the lower pallet fork jewel..

That's right, this is a lower pallet fork jewel - if I have my vocabulary right and "lower" jewels are set on the mainplate/bottom plate. That makes it part #2247, thanks for pointing me to the parts database.

 

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Otherwise you can have a tough time getting the metal to actually burnish over the square shoulder of a modern jewel

Indeed - I just watched a demonstration of this scenario, where the modern jewel's shoulder had to be ground to a bevel in order to burnish over. That would be well outside my available tooling and skill set at this point.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, mbwatch said:

That would be well outside my available tooling and skill set at this point.

grinding the edge on the jewel is surprisingly easy to do but it would be nice if you to watchmakers lathe. Somewhere in the group I think I posted a drawing in images this you basically need a piece of metal with a pivot on the end you put the jewel on your pivot with a little but oil and you need a diamond lap which a lot of watchmakers will have for sharpening their gravers. In year laying spinach you bring the jewel up so it spins with the lap it sounds weirder than it really is and if you angle it just right you can just get the jewel the spin and knocked the corner off and it works really well it's action quite simple. But without knocking the edge off your screwed well I've seen people still try to do it and it's problematic.

Another way to do this is if you had your jewel tools which you probably don't you just ream out the whole input in a modern jewel. Because nobody's going to see it on that side of the watch. You can try to find another 18 size plates with the correct jewel and hope that it actually fits because there's usually parts variations back then. But the usual reason that that jewel is broken is people don't know what they're doing with the putting in 18 size watch full plate back together again.

When you're putting in 18 size watch back together the pallet fork has to be attached to the upper plate and held in place with a variety of methods and then the plates with the pallet fork comes down on the main plate with all the wheels there and then you getting the pallet fork in the problem is sometimes a be on top of the escape wheel and they end up putting pressure where you shouldn't and you break the jewel or Enoch the pallet jewels out of alignment you can basically end up with a lot of damage by not understanding how to put in 18 size watch back together again. Which is why the jewel is broken

 

[nickelsilver]

Sorry John, I know you use dictation software but I just had to repeat it: In a year laying spinach

 

I will find a way to work that into my normal pub conversation, somehow.

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 

In year laying spinach

 

 

 

[mbwatch]

26 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

You can try to find another 18 size plates with the correct jewel and hope that it actually fits because there's usually parts variations back then

I have my eye one one at auction this week, same grade possibly same production run. I will probably try to buy it but I am hoping not to kill a donor movement; I would rather make a less than ideal fix to this one or just leave it aside until my skills advance. I don't have a Horia tool but expect I'll need to get one sooner rather than later along with some jewel gauges. I am nowhere near ready for a lathe yet.

 

31 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Another way to do this is if you had your jewel tools which you probably don't you just ream out the whole input in a modern jewel.

So the idea here is to cut away the extra metal intended for burnishing to a determined diameter and just push in a modern friction jewel. This is the sort of less-than-ideal fix I had in mind, which feels attainable at my skill level.

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Horia tool

a lot of people use a Seitz tool especially if you're going to put in a modern jewel you would have to open up the hole and the tool usually comes with the reamers. Or simplistically if you doing all of this right you need both of them.

40 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

dictation software

sometimes I hate dictation software just the little line up above three separate things had to be changed otherwise it wouldn't have made any sense at all. On the other hand without it I wouldn't even be here.