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Kickback check. Is this failing it?


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Hey i'm midway through my first assembly/lubrication and I just now noticed that insane checklist, much of which are terms i'm not familiar with or can't find good examples of like kickback.

I'm assuming kickback is when you wind up the watch a little, let the wheels spin before you put the pallet fork and balance in and after they finish spinning the move a bit in the opposite direction? I can't seem to find any specific examples of this and nothing comes up on google when i search the term. THis is a video i took and i'm guessing this is failing the kickback test? Things seem to spin, all the teeth are meshing good but maybe things dont' spin as freely as they should? I really have nothing to compare it to so maybe you can tell me what you think. https://www.dropbox.com/s/5tsbichr25ck5td/VID_20221031_181547~2.mp4?dl=0

As for where i'm at int he service, everything you see there except the train wheel jewels on the main plate are oiled. I have oiled the train wheel jewels on the train wheel bridge. I've been pretty damn careful about my oiling so i think things should be ok on that front, all my pivots look fine and everything has been cleaned and 3 staged rinsed and then oiled with 9010, hp1300, or Molykote where applicable. I shot this video right after i got the train wheel bridge on after i successfully oiled the train wheel bridge shock setting jewels.

If this is not looking good got any ideas where i should look first?

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Do you have a link to the checklist?

EDIT: I found it.

 

The part in question.

e. Wind watch slightly to check kick-back and recoil. This check should be made in dial up and dial down positions. If the watch does not have kick¬back, this indicates that the train is not as free as it should be. First, however, before checking into the train itself to determine if there is some frictional error, it would be worthwhile to examine the mainspring around the barrel arbor. Many times the loose fit of the mainspring around the arbor will prevent kick-back from occurring within the train. In such instances, the arbor is simply slipped in the mainspring instead of the train receiving the reversal torque, that normally occurs. If the barrel is found to be satisfactory, then the train. should be checked to see if the trouble can be located. first, the train should be examined carefully to see if each wheel is free, and if no trouble can be found, then it is advisable to remove the train wheels from the watch and replace each wheel in the watch individually and to check the spin of each wheel. If each wheel spins freely, this indicates that the pivots and the jewels are in good condition and that one need not look further for defects or faults in those areas. Next, place two wheels at a time in the watch and check the spin of the wheels. Thus, any error of improper depthing or a badly formed tooth on a wheel or pinion will be detected. It is simply a process of elimination in order to locate the particular trouble, and of course, proper corrective measures must be taken to correct an error when one is found.

It sounds like what you're doing is correct, but I've never seen this before. Will wait for someone with more experience to chime in.

Edited by lexacat
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31 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

Looks like a fail to me. Check the barrel isn't rubbing on one of the plates, and check all the end-shakes in the train.

Rewatching Mark's vid it does appear when he's checking the wheels they move far more freely than mine. This is disconcerting 😐  Oh well i was sorta looking for an excuse to to pull my pallet fork back out to rodico off the sides of the exit stone anyways as i MAY have smeared a little grease on it after i dropped the thing while oiling it.....

Here's mark's video where he's checking the wheel train 
I dont' see anything other than the wheels coming to a stop. If you know of a video that shows proper kickback i'd love to see it. I Just have no frame of reference. I'll see if i can have time to do what you said tomorrow and report back.

 

Edited by Birbdad
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1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Hey i'm midway through my first assembly/lubrication and I just now noticed that insane checklist, much of which are terms i'm not familiar with or can't find good examples of like kickback.

I'm assuming kickback is when you wind up the watch a little, let the wheels spin before you put the pallet fork and balance in and after they finish spinning the move a bit in the opposite direction? I can't seem to find any specific examples of this and nothing comes up on google when i search the term. THis is a video i took and i'm guessing this is failing the kickback test? Things seem to spin, all the teeth are meshing good but maybe things dont' spin as freely as they should? I really have nothing to compare it to so maybe you can tell me what you think. https://www.dropbox.com/s/5tsbichr25ck5td/VID_20221031_181547~2.mp4?dl=0

As for where i'm at int he service, everything you see there except the train wheel jewels on the main plate are oiled. I have oiled the train wheel jewels on the train wheel bridge. I've been pretty damn careful about my oiling so i think things should be ok on that front, all my pivots look fine and everything has been cleaned and 3 staged rinsed and then oiled with 9010, hp1300, or Molykote where applicable. I shot this video right after i got the train wheel bridge on after i successfully oiled the train wheel bridge shock setting jewels.

If this is not looking good got any ideas where i should look first?

Hello there nocturnal Colin, how you doin matey ? Yes generally a little reverse spin is noticed on the escape wheel. This would indicate a nice free running wheel train.  You maybe have a little friction somewhere in the train. This could be anywhere tbh, friction in jewels for various reasons, gears and pinions not meshing nicely from too much side shake. The barrel and mainspring can be the biggest culprit with such a lot going on there. When assembling check each and every component and how they interact with each other as you work towards the escapement. 

14 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Rewatching Mark's vid it does appear when he's checking the wheels they move far more freely than mine. This is disconcerting 😐  Oh well i was sorta looking for an excuse to to pull my pallet fork back out to rodico off the sides of the exit stone anyways as i MAY have smeared a little grease on it after i dropped the thing while oiling it.....

Here's mark's video where he's checking the wheel train 
I dont' see anything other than the wheels coming to a stop. If you know of a video that shows proper kickback i'd love to see it. I Just have no frame of reference. I'll see if i can have time to do what you said tomorrow and report back.

 

Wait while this evening and I'll open up a watch with a good reverse spin on the train. Nothing exciting to see except a second or 2 of the escape wheel reversing. Its only an indication of free running and i dont always get it, the movement will still have reasonable amplitude of around 270. 

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hello there nocturnal Colin, how you doin matey ? Yes generally a little reverse spin is noticed on the escape wheel. This would indicate a nice free running wheel train.  You maybe have a little friction somewhere in the train. This could be anywhere tbh, friction in jewels for various reasons, gears and pinions not meshing nicely from too much side shake. The barrel and mainspring can be the biggest culprit with such a lot going on there. When assembling check each and every component and how they interact with each other as you work towards the escapement. 

I'm alright, better than i was. feels good to not be a slave to nicotine. About 6.5 weeks off and doing a lot better. THat was a damn nightmare to go through but other than random bouts of sleeplessness I seem to be through it. Hope your'e well bud.

As for what you said that's a tad confusing as none of these seem to mesh and apparently aren't supposed to properly mesh till that bridge is on so i can't really check allignment other than pivots in jewel holes till that bridge is on. Are you suggesting i just put just experiment with putting the bridge on with wheels removed and checking each one and adding wheels till i get to the escape wheel? 

As for the mainspring, after many peoples insistence i'm not opening up the barrel as it's a **BLEEP** to get them open and they're not designed to be opened anyways plus i have no mainspring winder currently. I just cleaned off the arbor pivots and oiled them. If I can't track down the issue with the barrel itself or the wheels i guess open it up and see if the arbor needs to be reset or something. I got a spare nh35 lying around with a brand new barrel in it so there's that.

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9 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

I'm alright, better than i was. feels good to not be a slave to nicotine. About 6.5 weeks off and doing a lot better. THat was a damn nightmare to go through but other than random bouts of sleeplessness I seem to be through it. Hope your'e well bud.

Yes I'm very well thank you and well done you with ditching the smoking and patches 👍

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Just now, Neverenoughwatches said:

Yes I'm very well thank you and well done you with ditching the smoking and patches 👍

Smoking and vaping. Mainly vaping. I mostly switched to that from smoking about 10 years ago. Patches never did crap but dissolve holes in my skin haha.

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11 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

As for what you said that's a tad confusing as none of these seem to mesh and apparently aren't supposed to properly mesh till that bridge is on so i can't really check allignment other than pivots in jewel holes till that bridge is on. Are you suggesting i just put just experiment with putting the bridge on with wheels removed and checking each one and adding wheels till i get to the escape wheel? 

Yes you do need to have the bridge on. The reversing of the escape wheel is good to see and does indicate a free running of the train but i dont get too bothered about it,some things you can live with if the watch runs ok on your wrist unless the amplitude or reserve is low. In which case i would go back to investigate. You could check each train wheel individually for excessive sideshake and end shake a bit time consuming but necessary if you are going through the process of elimination. I meant i start with the barrel checking its components for visual  wear then its side and end shake with its bridge on. And then install the train checking all the pivots thoroughly , then how well they run together with their bridge on. At this point you would be looking for a reverse of the escape wheel by adding a few winds on the barrel.

15 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Smoking and vaping. Mainly vaping. I mostly switched to that from smoking about 10 years ago. Patches never did crap but dissolve holes in my skin haha.

Oooh nasty. 🤮

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5 hours ago, Birbdad said:

As for the mainspring, after many peoples insistence i'm not opening up the barrel as it's a **BLEEP** to get them open and they're not designed to be opened anyways plus i have no mainspring winder currently. I know some do replace the mainspring.i  cant comment there as to the difficulty as i have never tried on a Seiko. But i would probably give it a go just to find out what all the fuss is about.

 

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25 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I would normally lubricate after the movement was fully assembled. 

Now that's definitely confusing, there's many oil points that wouldn't be accessible once even the train wheel bridge is put on iirc. Yeah if i waited till after it was assembled i'd have to set the train bridge capstone jewels wet which nobody does because it's nearly impossible instead of oiling them from the other side of the bridge with the auto oiler.  

 

 

2 hours ago, praezis said:

That test is typically made before oiling. With oil in the jewels you cannot expect that reversal to happen in any case.

Frank

Now that's interesting. I would think lubrication would make things spin more freely. I'm gonna take off the train wheel bridge and double check things because it looks like things aren't spinning as freely as in mark's vid. 

Edited by Birbdad
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18 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Now that's definitely confusing, there's many oil points that wouldn't be accessible once even the train wheel bridge is put on iirc. Yeah if i waited till after it was assembled i'd have to set the train bridge capstone jewels wet which nobody does because it's nearly impossible instead of oiling them from the other side of the bridge with the auto oiler.  

I can see that my comments may conflict Colin, my repairs are 95 % vintage swiss. I've never used an auto oiler , i always disassemble and use a basic oiler.

24 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Now that's definitely confusing, there's many oil points that wouldn't be accessible once even the train wheel bridge is put on iirc. Yeah if i waited till after it was assembled i'd have to set the train bridge capstone jewels wet which nobody does because it's nearly impossible instead of oiling them from the other side of the bridge with the auto oiler.  

 

 

Now that's interesting. I would think lubrication would make things spin more freely. I'm gonna take off the train wheel bridge and double check things because it looks like things aren't spinning as freely as in mark's vid. 

Fresh oil will have viscosity as opposed to no oil has no viscosity.if you can imagine you are in a way contaminating a pivot in its jewel hole. This is why after a service amplitude can be quite low but pick up after a few hours sometimes days as the oil reaches its running viscosity.

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1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I can see that my comments may conflict Colin, my repairs are 95 % vintage swiss. I've never used an auto oiler , i always disassemble and use a basic oiler.

Fresh oil will have viscosity as opposed to no oil has no viscosity.if you can imagine you are in a way contaminating a pivot in its jewel hole. This is why after a service amplitude can be quite low but pick up after a few hours sometimes days as the oil reaches its running viscosity.

yeah that makes sense. So maybe this wasn't a fail? I'm taking it apart now and gonna just see if i can get things more freely moving. I just wish i had a frame of reference for how easily things should move. It takes a good bit of effort to manually spin the barrel but the other wheels immediately start moving once i do.

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Here's one way I check the train of wheels. 

With just the train installed, no mainspring barrel and no pallet fork, I use my puffer to gently blow air at the escape wheel. The escape wheel should take off and spin vigorously. 

Then, I put the mainspring barrel in, and do the same. This time,  the escape wheel should "bounce" off the resistance of the mainspring barrel, and then run the other direction a bit. This I call recoil, I've heard other terms used to describe the bounce. 

Once you've done this with a few watches you'll get a feel for what the train should do. 

Cheers!

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44 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

yeah that makes sense. So maybe this wasn't a fail? I'm taking it apart now and gonna just see if i can get things more freely moving. I just wish i had a frame of reference for how easily things should move. It takes a good bit of effort to manually spin the barrel but the other wheels immediately start moving once i do.

Depending on how you are " spinning the barrel " I'm guess you dont have the watch stem in. Are you using a screw driver in the barrel securing screw to put wind in the watch ? It may seem a little stiff compared to winding with the crown.

29 minutes ago, dadistic said:

Here's one way I check the train of wheels. 

With just the train installed, no mainspring barrel and no pallet fork, I use my puffer to gently blow air at the escape wheel. The escape wheel should take off and spin vigorously. 

Then, I put the mainspring barrel in, and do the same. This time,  the escape wheel should "bounce" off the resistance of the mainspring barrel, and then run the other direction a bit. This I call recoil, I've heard other terms used to describe the bounce. 

Once you've done this with a few watches you'll get a feel for what the train should do. 

Cheers!

Kick back, reverse spin, recoil, backlash. We all use a different term Dave. 

53 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

yeah that makes sense. So maybe this wasn't a fail? I'm taking it apart now and gonna just see if i can get things more freely moving. I just wish i had a frame of reference for how easily things should move. It takes a good bit of effort to manually spin the barrel but the other wheels immediately start moving once i do.

I can have a go at a video of it, i dont think i can upload it though. For some reason i can do very little on youtube. Not even commment on a video.

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21 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Depending on how you are " spinning the barrel " I'm guess you dont have the watch stem in. Are you using a screw driver in the barrel securing screw to put wind in the watch ? It may seem a little stiff compared to winding with the crown.

The stem is in, this is not a hand winding movement so i think it's irrelevent whether the stem is in. I did as in the original video i posted use a screwdriver to manually wind the barrel. 

ALso the top pivot of my 3rd wheel looked....odd once i pulled it out. THe actual pivot itself looked fine but the area it's joined to the wheel looked like it was almost sunk in compared to another one i had on hand. I swapped them and i'm putting it back together now. One thing that was weird befor ei took it together i was watching how Mark tests his wheel train, I noticed he was able to with ease turn the center wheel both directions and spin it clockwise with ease. I can only move it one direction for some reason and I don't know why. I examined all my wheels and the pivots look fine other than that thing with the 3rd wheel.

Why would he be able to spin his 4th wheel both directions but i can't? Everything seems to be engaging fine, everything is in their pivots.

 

https://youtu.be/tDa1ZZFwoBU?t=1350

EDIT: Ok now things are spinning more like i would expect from that video. sweet. I may have had a busted 3rd wheel before...

58 minutes ago, dadistic said:

Here's one way I check the train of wheels. 

With just the train installed, no mainspring barrel and no pallet fork, I use my puffer to gently blow air at the escape wheel. The escape wheel should take off and spin vigorously. 

Then, I put the mainspring barrel in, and do the same. This time,  the escape wheel should "bounce" off the resistance of the mainspring barrel, and then run the other direction a bit. This I call recoil, I've heard other terms used to describe the bounce. 

Once you've done this with a few watches you'll get a feel for what the train should do. 

Cheers!

Ey this is workin now! Might have had an out of spec or deformed 3rd wheel. Swapped it out and everything seems to be as expected now.

Edited by Birbdad
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21 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

The stem is in, this is not a hand winding movement so i think it's irrelevent whether the stem is in. I did as in the original video i posted use a screwdriver to manually wind the barrel. 

Sorry yes 7s26 no hand winding, pretty poor spec considering some of the watches are over 400 quid.

24 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

noticed he was able to with ease turn the center wheel both directions and spin it clockwise with ease. I can only move it one direction for some reason and I don't know

Hmm not quire sure about that. I'm working on an old russian watch at mo. The train spins both ways. Its manual wind not automatic. I'm thinking the train will only reverse so far until any slack is taken up on the mainspring. How about taking out the barrel and seeing if the train moves in both directions then. If not then something sounds amiss on the train. This may be a process of elimination then Col.

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31 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Sorry yes 7s26 no hand winding, pretty poor spec considering some of the watches are over 400 quid.

Hmm not quire sure about that. I'm working on an old russian watch at mo. The train spins both ways. Its manual wind not automatic. I'm thinking the train will only reverse so far until any slack is taken up on the mainspring. How about taking out the barrel and seeing if the train moves in both directions then. If not then something sounds amiss on the train. This may be a process of elimination then Col.

Yeah it was weird how you would find that movement in watches costing 80 dollars and as much as 500 dollars. It's  solid workhorse tho.

And the train does move in both directions with the barrel removed. I think what's happening is the click spring only allows the barrel to move in one direction but what i'm not sure is why mark can move it clockwise in that vid with the click spring installed? the click spring appears to be what's preventing it on mine as it should. Moving one wheel backwards i should think would move the entire train backwards which would just unwind the mainspring without the clickspring

Everything is moving very freely, even just blowing air on on the escape wheel moves everything very easy and you can see the barrel turn and the clickspring disengaging.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1hqx3tyuytfvhif/VID_20221101_162816~2.mp4?dl=0

This vid is what i got now. Not really seeing "recoil" but if @praezis is correct i guess i shouldn't expect to.

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1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

And the train does move in both directions with the barrel removed. I think what's happening is the click spring only allows the barrel to move in one direction but what i'm not sure is why mark can move it clockwise in that vid with the click spring installed? the click spring appears to be what's preventing it on mine as it should. Moving one wheel backwards i should think would move the entire train backwards which would just unwind the mainspring without the clickspring

The barrel wont move colin as you say the click will prevent that but reversing the train I'm thinking will take up the slack on the mainspring inside the barrel. Completely unwinding any slack but it would stop when that point is reached, or perhaps could release the barrel arbor hook from the mainspring if pushed too far i think that would take some doing though. It just sounds as though you have no slack left in your mainspring ie. Completely unwound. So your train sounds ok apart from maybe this damaged 3rd wheel.

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Yeah it was weird how you would find that movement in watches costing 80 dollars and as much as 500 dollars. It's  solid workhorse tho.

And the train does move in both directions with the barrel removed. I think what's happening is the click spring only allows the barrel to move in one direction but what i'm not sure is why mark can move it clockwise in that vid with the click spring installed? the click spring appears to be what's preventing it on mine as it should. Moving one wheel backwards i should think would move the entire train backwards which would just unwind the mainspring without the clickspring

Everything is moving very freely, even just blowing air on on the escape wheel moves everything very easy and you can see the barrel turn and the clickspring disengaging.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1hqx3tyuytfvhif/VID_20221101_162816~2.mp4?dl=0

This vid is what i got now. Not really seeing "recoil" but if @praezis is correct i guess i shouldn't expect to.

Maybe not if you've oiled the jewels. Something i might try to confirm. A good high end watch in good condition probably has good backspin ( sounds like a tennis shot ). My grandfathers 50 year old Rekata is showing a little.

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38 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The barrel wont move colin as you say the click will prevent that but reversing the train I'm thinking will take up the slack on the mainspring inside the barrel. Completely unwinding any slack but it would stop when that point is reached, or perhaps could release the barrel arbor hook from the mainspring if pushed too far i think that would take some doing though. It just sounds as though you have no slack left in your mainspring ie. Completely unwound. So your train sounds ok apart from maybe this damaged 3rd wheel.

Maybe not if you've oiled the jewels. Something i might try to confirm. A good high end watch in good condition probably has good backspin ( sounds like a tennis shot ). My grandfathers 50 year old Rekata is showing a little.

@gbyleveldt Works on seikos, maybe he could weigh in. I'm hoping i can avoid having to open the barrel because jfc is it impossible on these as i guess they're not designed to be opened, just replaced. Mark somehow does it with his fingernails, i tried it once with a junk barrel and had to damage the hell out of it with a knife to pry it open. 

I might just move forward and see how the amplitude is and then worry about it all.

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3 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

because jfc is it impossible on these as i guess they're not designed to be opened, just replaced.

Jfc ?  Is that anything like kfc cos im bloody starving 😄

5 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

@gbyleveldt Works on seikos, maybe he could weigh in. I'm hoping i can avoid having to open the barrel because jfc is it impossible on these as i guess they're not designed to be opened, just replaced. Mark somehow does it with his fingernails, i tried it once with a junk barrel and had to damage the hell out of it with a knife to pry it open. 

I might just move forward and see how the amplitude is and then worry about it all.

Yep Gert is the dogs nads with seiko.

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41 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Jfc ?  Is that anything like kfc cos im bloody starving 😄

Yep Gert is the dogs nads with seiko.

Haha, you flatter me. And there’s waaaay more qualified Seiko guys than me.

@Birbdad Can I tell you a little secret? That backlash thing doesn’t always work like you’d hope. Typical Seiko’s are made by the millions with pretty large tolerances. On some you win the tolerance stacking lottery, on some you don’t. It is what it is. You can obsess over getting this right on a $40 movement or you can put many of them together and get a feel for them. After you’ve done maybe 10 of them you know if it’s gonna be a runner or not. Install the main barrel and centre wheel by themselves, mount the train bridge. Use a puffer on the barrel teeth. If it moves freely, you’re good. Take those out, install the train without the barrel, mount the train bridge again, do the puffer test on the escape wheel. If all good you proceed to fit everything and move on. Again, once you’ve done a few you’ll get a feel for it, it’s not easy to teach this and as a beginner, I wouldn’t obsess over it at first. It’s not like it’s a COSC certified movement.

Lastly, and I’m going against the grain of accepted wisdom here, but on a modern cheap Seiko movement, don’t bother with taking the barrel apart unless you have the equipment to put it back together. 99% of them are good. Without experience, you don’t know what you don’t know.

I’m busy clearing out some of my watch collection of pieces I’ve done long ago but never wear. I cringe now when I put them on the TG and see they haven’t held up well over time. Why? Because I didn’t know then what I know now. So I’ve had to redo the service on these before passing the pieces on. It happens and you can’t hope to achieve perfection on your first try. Get those pieces working well and learn from the experience. The day you stop learning something new every time you work on something is the day you either give up the hobby or start earning a living from it as otherwise it’s no longer stimulating. Ok, I’m probably being a little harsh but you get my point.

I understand the strive for getting things perfect right from the get go. But that road leads to frustration. Because in the beginning it won’t be perfect. Accept that and learn from it and most of all, enjoy the journey and the small wins when something works better than it did before. But don’t beat yourself up. You can always circle back to things down the road as you gain experience.

Anyway, at the risk of rambling and repeating myself, just put the damn thing together and see what happens. Repeat this a few times and learn from it. Don’t get frustrated and have a good time, take the small wins. “Perfection” will come with time. Spoiler: no one is perfect…

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12 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

Haha, you flatter me. And there’s waaaay more qualified Seiko guys than me.

@Birbdad Can I tell you a little secret? That backlash thing doesn’t always work like you’d hope. Typical Seiko’s are made by the millions with pretty large tolerances. On some you win the tolerance stacking lottery, on some you don’t. It is what it is. You can obsess over getting this right on a $40 movement or you can put many of them together and get a feel for them. After you’ve done maybe 10 of them you know if it’s gonna be a runner or not. Install the main barrel and centre wheel by themselves, mount the train bridge. Use a puffer on the barrel teeth. If it moves freely, you’re good. Take those out, install the train without the barrel, mount the train bridge again, do the puffer test on the escape wheel. If all good you proceed to fit everything and move on. Again, once you’ve done a few you’ll get a feel for it, it’s not easy to teach this and as a beginner, I wouldn’t obsess over it at first. It’s not like it’s a COSC certified movement.

Lastly, and I’m going against the grain of accepted wisdom here, but on a modern cheap Seiko movement, don’t bother with taking the barrel apart unless you have the equipment to put it back together. 99% of them are good. Without experience, you don’t know what you don’t know.

I’m busy clearing out some of my watch collection of pieces I’ve done long ago but never wear. I cringe now when I put them on the TG and see they haven’t held up well over time. Why? Because I didn’t know then what I know now. So I’ve had to redo the service on these before passing the pieces on. It happens and you can’t hope to achieve perfection on your first try. Get those pieces working well and learn from the experience. The day you stop learning something new every time you work on something is the day you either give up the hobby or start earning a living from it as otherwise it’s no longer stimulating. Ok, I’m probably being a little harsh but you get my point.

I understand the strive for getting things perfect right from the get go. But that road leads to frustration. Because in the beginning it won’t be perfect. Accept that and learn from it and most of all, enjoy the journey and the small wins when something works better than it did before. But don’t beat yourself up. You can always circle back to things down the road as you gain experience.

Anyway, at the risk of rambling and repeating myself, just put the damn thing together and see what happens. Repeat this a few times and learn from it. Don’t get frustrated and have a good time, take the small wins. “Perfection” will come with time. Spoiler: no one is perfect…

Cool thanks. It's less than i'm trying to get things perfect and more that i have zero frame of reference for any of this, there's a checklist for beginners, seemed like a good idea to pay attention to it. What i dont' want to do is get the damn thing together and it doesn't even keep good enough time to bother wearing, then i gotta disassemble, reclean and go down some big rabbit hole to find the one of seemingly 100 things that is responsible. I like to do things right the first time and I just learn better that way. Doesn't have to be perfect but to do things the way they're supposed to be done.  It might take me a couple months of my rare spare time to get it right the first time, but i do it once the second time will only take an afternoon. That's just how i am.

If those two things you mentioned are your test this is passing that with flying colors and I'm gonna move on with the assembly and lubrication. 

I'll be pretty disappointed if i get the thing put together and run it for a bit then put it on the timegrapher and it's just not performing.

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    • Ladies and gents, I found the most awesome old gold watch chain!  It has spring links!  I am always so careful with my antique pocket watches, and still fear to drop them, even while on a chain. I've re-staffed a number of balance wheels that no doubt suffered a similar fate. But this chain has lessened that fear somewhat.  So my "watch of today" was my beautiful Elgin 339 clipped to this chain.
    • For me, there’s no binary yes/no answer to this. It really is a matter of feel, experience, inspection under magnification, the age of the movement and what a replacement costs vs invested effort to “revive” it that all play a role determining the answer above. For an Omega 56x series reverser wheel you’ll spend more time trying to revive a reverser (which, by the way is also much more serviceable, but also harder and more expensive to find a replacement for) than you would an a Sellita SW200 where replacements are cheap and easy to find.
    • That's what I did after my Pearl machine stopped working. I've run about 5 watches through it so far and get results as expected. One interesting note is that their customer service says the machine comes with a 2 year warranty but that is not indicated on the website and when asked via email they are unable to provide a copy of the warranty, which I believe runs counter to US federal law 🤷‍♂️  Luckily for me the service center they use for repairs is local to me so if I ever do need to have it serviced I won't have to ship it in its HUGE box.
    • @JohnR725I live in a “3rd world” country (South Africa) and even here you can’t make a middle class living charging $120 to service a watch. I make many times that spending that same amount of time in my day job. But quote the average someone $200 to service their inherited vintage Omega (that stopped working 20 years ago) and you’re told you’re effing mad. This is why watchmaking is dead as a profession in modern times; everyone wants that cool mechanical watch, no one considers what it costs to maintain it. A wrist watch is no longer an essential tool, it’s novelty jewellery. So I do it as a hobby, a make a few videos and I fix broken things. If this hobby can make a little money to at least contribute to its vast expenses then that’s a bonus. I have many other hobbies that are just money pits, so there’s at least that. Speaking of making videos: there’s a lot of criticism being levelled at YouTube watchmakers, either because they don’t show enough detail, or that they talk too much, or that they’re hacks, or whatever other negative thing you can imagine. But these YouTube watchmakers have done more to expose watchmaking to the average Joe than what any of the professional watchmaking institutions have ever done. Professional watchmakers scoff at these “hacks” in their comment sections but fail to see how these YouTubers create interest in the average Joe and turn them into enthusiasts. Anyway, enough rambling from me…
    • This Suizo 1950s AS1361N 10 micron gold plated Automatic got an outing today. It is a gents watch, but is quite a diminutive piece (as was typical for the time). It is also very well engineered. The plating has a few wear marks, but other than that it is looking pretty good for its age. There is one minor discrepancy though. The dial states 25 jewels but the rotor says 21 jewels. Oh well, I guess nobody's perfect. It got a new crystal as the old one had resisted my best polishing efforts, but still wasn't up to scratch. I also treated it to a period correct 17mm dark green leather band from a job lot of 1950s or 1960s straps I picket up recently.  Before you ask, no, I am not responsible for all of those scratches on the rotor, they were there long before I got my hands on it. Suizo is almost certainly a Achille Hirsch brand.  
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