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Kickback check. Is this failing it?


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6 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Interesting...on a brand new pallet fork...So you say a 3rd of teh width of the end, it looks like the ends barely touches. I guess i'm not sure where you're getting a 1/3rd from. That greatly narrows things down tho. Lookin forward to the weekend to get to the bottom of this.

 

16680313365676021288943157894729.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

I FIGURED IT OUT! 


So for archival purposes this is what was goin on.
The reason the movement was stopping is because the escapement lockup was failing.
The reason the lockup was failing is because there was too much endshake in the escape wheel.

The reason there was too much endshake in the escape wheel is because this is one of those weird 7s36 movements with the two extra useless jewels. 
In the service manual AND the only tutorial on the internet of a service of specifically a 7s36b, it tells you to put on this plate with the two useless jewels in this pic, 3rd wheel and pinion plate after you put in the pallet fork and balance etc.

174041019_thethingy.thumb.jpg.d51d0d5dd4efeced57c283d9fb7babb7.jpg

This is fine and i'm not sure why the movement works for the guy doing the tutorial before putting that plate on but putting this plate in drastically cuts down on the endshake of the escapement wheel and everything appears to be working as normal only after it's on. Before it was on the pallet fork would sometimes be on top of the escapewheel which would cause those tooth skips. Very pleased i can move forward again.

Edited by Birbdad
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4 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I FIGURED IT OUT! 


So for archival purposes this is what was goin on.
The reason the movement was stopping is because the escapement lockup was failing.
The reason the lockup was failing is because there was too much endshake in the escape wheel.

The reason there was too much endshake in the escape wheel is because this is one of those weird 7s36 movements with the two extra useless jewels. 
In the service manual AND the only tutorial on the internet of a service of specifically a 7s36b, it tells you to put on this plate with the two useless jewels in this pic, 3rd wheel and pinion plate after you put in the pallet fork and balance etc.

174041019_thethingy.thumb.jpg.d51d0d5dd4efeced57c283d9fb7babb7.jpg

This is fine and i'm not sure why the movement works for the guy doing the tutorial before putting that plate on but putting this plate in drastically cuts down on the endshake of the escapement wheel and everything appears to be working as normal only after it's on. Before it was on the pallet fork would sometimes be on top of the escapewheel which would cause those tooth skips. Very pleased i can move forward again.

Whoop whoop woohoo. You go Col, well done sunshine 🌞 ☀️ 👏.

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Alright! First results are in. I got the watch assembled and everything is working and it's not the disaster I expected. I haven't regulated it or adjusted it yet, i wsa just really hoping to see that 270 amplitude and it's not quite there. 
image.thumb.png.ab60619ea9153adfc4a61d5df3674656.png

It is worth noting i lubed it assembled it and threw it on the timegrapher immediately. I've heard you're supposed to let it run overnight and to get all the juices and lube spread around to all the places they're supposed to be before taking a proper amplitude reading. Is that true? ALso due to the locking issues i was having. i got a feeling my escapement lube job got totally  screwed up, i was thinking of cleaning and relubing it. That might be dragging down my amplitude.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z5hb5oex5snoxh1/VID_20221120_234721.mp4?dl=0 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1wka2ca5xje76r7/VID_20221120_231247.mp4?dl=0

If not, what you guys think? It's an unopened barrel that is probably i dunno 10 years old? Should i try swapping it out for a new one or is this what you would expect from a 10 years or maybe even older mainspring. Got it on the grey market from singapore so who knows it's history.
Either way this was a non runner, this is my first attempt at anything watchmaking and it's running! It's not perfect but i'm pretty damn pleased.

Edited by Birbdad
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2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

i wsa just really hoping to see that 270 amplitude and it's not quite there.

Oh and I know the obsession is with amplitude nothing less than 300° or death. But what about the beat it might be nice if you nudge that much closer to zero it's a little on the high side and that could be an issue even for amplitude.

Then out of curiosity did you see the 270° mentioned in the service guide anywhere?

2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

It is worth noting i lubed it assembled it and threw it on the timegrapher immediately. I've heard you're supposed to let it run overnight and to get all the juices and lube spread around to all the places they're supposed to be before taking a proper amplitude reading. Is that true?

Did you know before these newfangled timing machines watchmakers would just put the watch right on the timing machine is a didn't have amplitude to worry about they just at paper tape coming out with the graphical display. Then watch companies usually have timing procedures to follow like wind the watch up to wait 15 minutes to about an hour it depends on whose procedure you follow. Then yes fresh lubrication on the escapement needs to run a little bit but certainly not 24 hours.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Oh and I know the obsession is with amplitude nothing less than 300° or death. But what about the beat it might be nice if you nudge that much closer to zero it's a little on the high side and that could be an issue even for amplitude.

Then out of curiosity did you see the 270° mentioned in the service guide anywhere?

Did you know before these newfangled timing machines watchmakers would just put the watch right on the timing machine is a didn't have amplitude to worry about they just at paper tape coming out with the graphical display. Then watch companies usually have timing procedures to follow like wind the watch up to wait 15 minutes to about an hour it depends on whose procedure you follow. Then yes fresh lubrication on the escapement needs to run a little bit but certainly not 24 hours.

 

 

The 270 is just a thing i've heard so many times I just sorta assume it's true. There's also that my other seikos all have an amplitude of around 270 to 280. Once i let the movement settle in i'm gonna probably try to get that beat error down and relube the escapement and see if that raises it and then i'll let you guys tell me whether i should try other things or just let it be and move onto my next watch.

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2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Alright! First results are in. I got the watch assembled and everything is working and it's not the disaster I expected. I haven't regulated it or adjusted it yet, i wsa just really hoping to see that 270 amplitude and it's not quite there. 
image.thumb.png.ab60619ea9153adfc4a61d5df3674656.png

It is worth noting i lubed it assembled it and threw it on the timegrapher immediately. I've heard you're supposed to let it run overnight and to get all the juices and lube spread around to all the places they're supposed to be before taking a proper amplitude reading. Is that true? ALso due to the locking issues i was having. i got a feeling my escapement lube job got totally  screwed up, i was thinking of cleaning and relubing it. That might be dragging down my amplitude.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z5hb5oex5snoxh1/VID_20221120_234721.mp4?dl=0 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1wka2ca5xje76r7/VID_20221120_231247.mp4?dl=0

If not, what you guys think? It's an unopened barrel that is probably i dunno 10 years old? Should i try swapping it out for a new one or is this what you would expect from a 10 years or maybe even older mainspring. Got it on the grey market from singapore so who knows it's history.
Either way this was a non runner, this is my first attempt at anything watchmaking and it's running! It's not perfect but i'm pretty damn pleased.

Have you set the lift angle Colin ?

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3 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

The 270 is just a thing i've heard so many times I just sorta assume it's true. There's also that my other seikos all have an amplitude of around 270 to 280. Once i let the movement settle in i'm gonna probably try to get that beat error down and relube the escapement and see if that raises it and then i'll let you guys tell me whether i should try other things or just let it be and move onto my next watch.

 

4 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

The 270 is just a thing i've heard so many times I just sorta assume it's true. There's also that my other seikos all have an amplitude of around 270 to 280. Once i let the movement settle in i'm gonna probably try to get that beat error down and relube the escapement and see if that raises it and then i'll let you guys tell me whether i should try other things or just let it be and move onto my next watch.

Amplitude after 24 hours is a better indication Col, more so after a few days of everything bedding in.

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5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

Amplitude after 24 hours is a better indication Col, more so after a few days of everything bedding in.

I've heard that. Jon says otherwise. I'm done for the night anyways so i'm just gonna keep it wound and let it sit.

I got another one all cleaned and ready to go soon as this one is done. I bet you can get this thing together and lubed in a few hours instead of a few weeks.

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3 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

The 270 is just a thing i've heard so many times I just sorta assume it's true. There's also that my other seikos all have an amplitude of around 270 to 280. Once i let the movement settle in i'm gonna probably try to get that beat error down and relube the escapement and see if that raises it and then i'll let you guys tell me whether i should try other things or just let it be and move onto my next watch.

One of the problems with Seiko tech sheets are the lack of the specifications.  As far as I know There's only one Seiko tech sheet that actually mentions what the amplitude should be after servicing and it's not 270° or even 300° Seiko watches are famous for low amplitude. So if we don't have Seiko specifications for Seiko watch what to do well easy let's get some Seiko specifications Seiko has an OEM division let's see what's equivalent to your watch Looks like the NH 36 should be equivalent.

So when you look at the specifications you notice the obsession with amplitude well it's not there at all sort of. Typically for the watch companies there's an obsession with timekeeping. The closest thing you get the amplitude on the specifications of this watch is it supposed to run for 41 hours. Then yes that actually is a test that service center is due for a variety of watches is they wind them up and they let him run until he stopped to make sure they actually will run the required amount of time.

Typically if a watch company does published specifications on amplitude all Will give you is it shouldn't typically be over 300° although it depends upon the watch. Then at 24 hours in a certain position it should be 200° but I've seen some watches will go as low as 160° typically the low amplitude is For Omega watches they will tolerate much lower amplitudes. But they still have very exacting timekeeping specifications.

Oh and I assume you do know how to adjust the beat error?

 

https://www.timemodule.com/en/index.php

 

 

tmi nh36 time.JPG

NH36_TG.pdf

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4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

One of the problems with Seiko tech sheets are the lack of the specifications.  As far as I know There's only one Seiko tech sheet that actually mentions what the amplitude should be after servicing and it's not 270° or even 300° Seiko watches are famous for low amplitude. So if we don't have Seiko specifications for Seiko watch what to do well easy let's get some Seiko specifications Seiko has an OEM division let's see what's equivalent to your watch Looks like the NH 36 should be equivalent.

So when you look at the specifications you notice the obsession with amplitude well it's not there at all sort of. Typically for the watch companies there's an obsession with timekeeping. The closest thing you get the amplitude on the specifications of this watch is it supposed to run for 41 hours. Then yes that actually is a test that service center is due for a variety of watches is they wind them up and they let him run until he stopped to make sure they actually will run the required amount of time.

Typically if a watch company does published specifications on amplitude all Will give you is it shouldn't typically be over 300° although it depends upon the watch. Then at 24 hours in a certain position it should be 200° but I've seen some watches will go as low as 160° typically the low amplitude is For Omega watches they will tolerate much lower amplitudes. But they still have very exacting timekeeping specifications.

Oh and I assume you do know how to adjust the beat error?

 

https://www.timemodule.com/en/index.php

 

 

tmi nh36 time.JPG

NH36_TG.pdf 2.34 MB · 0 downloads

Yeah the nh36 would be the equivalent, I also find it interesting they test without the calender works installed. I tested with the thing fully assembled minus the hands/dial.  That is all very interesting though, thanks. I will still probably relube the escapement just because I might as well get everything right to the best of my abilities and i'm sure that's borked from the lockup issues I was having. If you think i should be content with 250ish amplitude after the escapement relube i'm pretty eager to get this thing back on my wrist. I adore this watch.

And i'm pretty sure i do know micro adjustments of the beat error lever. If there's anything else you specifically want me to keep in mind by all means lay it on me.

Also here's the before and after of the thing.
image.thumb.png.53796ea55ecd655250df587938a80820.png
Yes I'm aware i didn't have the lift angle set when I took that.

image.thumb.png.9368adff385f5ca5d858879301f699b0.png
I'd call that a pretty big improvement.

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7 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

I'd call that a pretty big improvement.

Actually I would call that the spectacular improvement.

As far as having the calendar works installed with the really worrying about is timing when it's driving the calendar consents going to drop the amplitude conceivably a little bit. Usually a find a lot of watch shops once the watch the base watches running it goes on the timing machine and then if it passes deployment hairy then you can start adding in things like calendars automatics etc. you don't want to find your having a timing issue and then have to take the watch apart again.

10 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

i'm pretty sure i do know micro adjustments of the beat error lever. If there's anything else you specifically want me to keep in mind by all means lay it on me.

The word micro adjustments is bothering me. I'm attaching an image out of the tech sheet. Unfortunately it's not entirely that simple sometimes but one of them is for timekeeping and the stud is for the beat. The problem is because they're layered on top of each other sometimes moving one will move the other so you have to move on then readjust the other one possibly. Goss after a careful of the timekeeping the regulator pins because that can rotate so can the stud and you don't want to rotate those when you're pushing the arms.   All of that can be sort of found on page 17 of the PDF I previously attached. So you should build a easily adjust the beat down to very close to zero. As a reminder unlike time regulation where you have plus and minus you do not have plus and -4 beat. So if you're not careful you can go right past zero and end up on the other side and have no idea that you've done that at all. So it's best to slowly push it in one direction and see what happens in a disco really slowly.

Oh and then regarding your timing machine use. As it mentioned in the tech sheet timing and more than one position. For troubleshooting purposes you always want to look at both dial positions down and up for instance they should be identical or very close to that otherwise you have a pivot or jewel issue. Then if it's a wristwatch at the bare minimum you should have crown down or whatever it said in the tech sheet I think it's a three position checking. It's nice to do it more for troubleshooting issues problems don't always occur in one position only.

Seiko time beat adjustment.JPG

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1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Actually I would call that the spectacular improvement.

As far as having the calendar works installed with the really worrying about is timing when it's driving the calendar consents going to drop the amplitude conceivably a little bit. Usually a find a lot of watch shops once the watch the base watches running it goes on the timing machine and then if it passes deployment hairy then you can start adding in things like calendars automatics etc. you don't want to find your having a timing issue and then have to take the watch apart again.

The word micro adjustments is bothering me. I'm attaching an image out of the tech sheet. Unfortunately it's not entirely that simple sometimes but one of them is for timekeeping and the stud is for the beat. The problem is because they're layered on top of each other sometimes moving one will move the other so you have to move on then readjust the other one possibly. Goss after a careful of the timekeeping the regulator pins because that can rotate so can the stud and you don't want to rotate those when you're pushing the arms.   All of that can be sort of found on page 17 of the PDF I previously attached. So you should build a easily adjust the beat down to very close to zero. As a reminder unlike time regulation where you have plus and minus you do not have plus and -4 beat. So if you're not careful you can go right past zero and end up on the other side and have no idea that you've done that at all. So it's best to slowly push it in one direction and see what happens in a disco really slowly.

Oh and then regarding your timing machine use. As it mentioned in the tech sheet timing and more than one position. For troubleshooting purposes you always want to look at both dial positions down and up for instance they should be identical or very close to that otherwise you have a pivot or jewel issue. Then if it's a wristwatch at the bare minimum you should have crown down or whatever it said in the tech sheet I think it's a three position checking. It's nice to do it more for troubleshooting issues problems don't always occur in one position only.

Seiko time beat adjustment.JPG

Yeah i got all that. I did this once before and i barely moved the thing to adjust a 7 ms beat error but i might have caused some other weird issues with the hairspring. This was when I first started out. I think i was exerting some downward pressure on the arm and that causing them both to move and it just took forever because it was slightly moving both at times and the hairspring never really looked quite right afterwards. In fact i still have that balance and it's my only other potentially useable balance so If you wanted to take a look at that and give some advice on what to do with it i'd appreciate it. I'm noticing in the graphic the regulator pins are set to the open position. I've had a few people say that you should open them before adjusting beat error as they can basically snag the hairspring and destroy it sometimes. Does that make sense to you?

EDIT: After letting it run a few hours it's hitting almost 263 to 265 amplitude 😎 Hell yes.

Edited by Birbdad
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For a movement running at 21600, 246° amplitude, 5.3ms beat error equates at an angular error of about 12° at the adjuster. So more than a tiny tweak. Don't worry about getting it exactly zero.

If you get more than 6-7ms error, the lines on the display "wrap round", so you can get the lines on top of each other but be way out in beat error. 

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1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Yeah i got all that. I did this once before and i barely moved the thing to adjust a 7 ms beat error

Oh the other thing to remember for beat error is depending upon the watch sometimes it's easier to take all the power off and visually adjusted so it's really close and then wind it back up again and use the timing machine.

58 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Don't worry about getting it exactly zero

What we can't have zero the world will come to an end.  That is looking for a reference because yes beat here is extremely not really important sort of. So looking at the Omega document I have says typically 0.6 for most of them in a couple were 0.8 and I thought I had something related the Rolex around here would've they have to say about this okay they are 0.8. So for anything else basically under 2 ms should be fine.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Oh the other thing to remember for beat error is depending upon the watch sometimes it's easier to take all the power off and visually adjusted so it's really close and then wind it back up again and use the timing machine.

What we can't have zero the world will come to an end.  That is looking for a reference because yes beat here is extremely not really important sort of. So looking at the Omega document I have says typically 0.6 for most of them in a couple were 0.8 and I thought I had something related the Rolex around here would've they have to say about this okay they are 0.8. So for anything else basically under 2 ms should be fine.

 

 

How do you adjust for beat error manually without power? i keep seeing people mentioning it but i haven't really found any great tutorials on how it's done. I saw one once that talked about lining up something with the banking pins but there are no banking pins in these movements.

Edited by Birbdad
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21 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

How do you adjust for beat error manually without power? i keep seeing people mentioning it but i haven't really found any great tutorials on how it's done. I saw one once that talked about lining up something with the banking pins but there are no banking pins in these movements.

Haha Col you were supposed to be packing it in hours ago, you are going to be well knackered matey. Stop faffing around and get your head down. 

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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15 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

20221121_124249.thumb.jpg.16a9900add57c251036d48fc1390ae17.jpg

20221121_124224.thumb.jpg.151c9034a4d07aafdca56a4cc5aa8881.jpg

Yeah, i guess i don't get how you're supposed to visibly line all that up on a 7s26 considering the only part of the escapement you can see is the exit stone of the pallet fork and the pallet pivot and maybe 1 or 2 teeth on the escape wheel. 
image.png.45b9de46b7fa310497f70e135174ae94.png

 

13 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha Col you were supposed to be packing it in hours ago, you are going to be well knackered matey. Stop faffing around and get your head down. 

Yeah, was talking with a potential new art client. Imma turn in.

Edited by Birbdad
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2 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Yeah, i guess i don't get how you're supposed to visibly line all that up on a 7s26 considering the only part of the escapement you can see is the exit stone of the pallet fork and the pallet pivot and maybe 1 or 2 teeth on the escape wheel. 
image.png.45b9de46b7fa310497f70e135174ae94.png

 

Yeah, was talking with a potential new art client. Imma turn in.

Hope it goes well. Now sleep sunshine, I'm your acting dad. God help you 😅

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2 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Woke up and the amplitude dropped back down to where it was before, about 250. Not what I hoped for but it's ok from the sound of it. 

From my experience, and what I've read, 250° on a 7S26 is fine. I have a 7S26 and can't get that.

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250 is fine for a 7s26. Stop agonising over it. Rather spend some time sorting out the beat error.

Remove the balance, remove pallet bridge, remove pallet fork, place back pallet bridge, place back balance. Look through the side of the movement, past the balance staff at the pallet bridge. Move stud so the impulse pin is hidden behind the balance staff. That’ll get you close on getting the beat error close.

reinstall pallet fork and fine tune the stud to get the beat error right. You’ll probably see an improvement in amplitude

Edited by gbyleveldt
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32 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

250 is fine for a 7s26. Stop agonising over it. Rather spend some time sorting out the beat error.

Remove the balance, remove pallet bridge, remove pallet fork, place back pallet bridge, place back balance. Look through the side of the movement, past the balance staff at the pallet bridge. Move stud so the impulse pin is hidden behind the balance staff. That’ll get you close on getting the beat error close.

reinstall pallet fork and fine tune the stud to get the beat error right. You’ll probably see an improvement in amplitude

Hmm. i think i get this...i'll give it a shot, though by impulse pin do you mean impulse jewel?

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