Trying to close the mainspring barrel pivot, but the hole simply will not close up

[GregG]

9 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Actually, I would be interested in some photos of the faceplate, especially on how to hold pieces (such as a mainplate) where it’s not entirely flat along the entire circumference. How do you keep the hole you are inserting perpendicular to the axis on a faceplate?

I'm sorry I haven't gotten you the picture yet.  I decided to do some more restoration work on my Seitz tool.  I applied some paint stripper and it's down to the bare metal now.  Then I put it through my buffing machine and the entire thing has a mirror finish to it.  This weekend I'm going to spray paint it glossy black, and maybe embellish it with some gold leaf XD. 
The faceplate is symmetric around it's circumference, but not symmetric radially.  There are channels cut into the faceplate, but the movement plate just sits on the high sections, so I didn't have any issue about perpendicularity.  I can't prove that it was 100% perpendicular, but it worked, so there's some merit to it.

[mikepilk]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks Mike. Good hear someone elses experiences and get overs .

Choosing the right sized punch with a balance of leaving enough of the mainplate untouched but not so small that the new created arbor hole is too thin. Learning to bush a hole woukd be the next step forward.

Bushing would be great, but (mostly) impractical. The bridge above is 0.3mm thick. 

I've looked at using jewels for upper arbor bushing, but I cannot find any large enough. The above arbor needs a 1.4mm hole, the largest jewel shown on Cousins is 1.10 mm hole. And the largest brass bushing has a hole size 1.2 mm.

I guess if you have a lathe (I don't) you could make them. But could you secure them in 0.3 mm brass ?

[ifibrin]

10 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Bushing would be great, but (mostly) impractical. The bridge above is 0.3mm thick. 

I've looked at using jewels for upper arbor bushing, but I cannot find any large enough. The above arbor needs a 1.4mm hole, the largest jewel shown on Cousins is 1.10 mm hole. And the largest brass bushing has a hole size 1.2 mm.

I guess if you have a lathe (I don't) you could make them. But could you secure them in 0.3 mm brass ?

I wonder if it’s possible to use a watchmakers lathe to make a glass jewel for the barrel arbor: would it be easier than making a jewel from ruby? @nickelsilver, do you think this is possible, and easier than making a jewel from ruby?

[VWatchie]

I have a barrel bridge arbor bearing that needs a slight reduction. I have never closed a barrel bridge arbor hole before and my staking set has a very limited number of doomed punches and most of them are too small (go through the hole) or too short to fit in the lower section of my inverto-style Boley & Leinen staking tool. So, I'm considering ordering a few doomed punches from CousinsUK. My question is what sizes I should order? Is there a rule of thumb relating to the hole diameter?

I too worried that reducing the hole size would increase the end-shake. Especially as Kalle Slaap talks about end-shake at the end of the video at 7:43, but then he just glosses over it by saying "You can just gently push the material back in", which I don't get at all 

Anyway, I feel a lot less worried now after having seen @mikepilk's excellent illustration. Thanks!

[Eliminator]

I have a pocket watch that requires hammertime. The arbor pivot is no longer round and oversize. I may have saved a Youtube guide about repairing elongated pivot holes.... Without  searching for it, does this involve enlarging the smaller edges of the "slot" with a reamer, then doing the hammertime.

I follow Kalle and seen the videos of hammertime. I have quite a few tools, microscope, timegrapher, so I am quite into the hobby.

My concern is buying a Chinese staking set versus a second hand " better quailty" item. Also, how much use I would get out of it. I have wondered about using a small ball bearing!!!!!! This would have a self centering action.

Bit of a rhetorical question I guess.

Edited September 2, 2024 by Eliminator
Added additional info.

[tomh207]

@Eliminator

you will need a decent staking set, most of the Chinese ones are soft and not worth the postage or the pixels on the website. Safe way it too look out for a decent vintage set, plenty of information in the tools section here with lots of good advice. You will also need smoothing broaches. A ball bearing and reamer is most definitely not the way to go.

 

Tom

[mbwatch]

17 minutes ago, Eliminator said:

Also, how much use I would get out of it

Hi! If you plan to work on more old pocket watches, you will end up using it on every project for a variety of tasks. Lots of things need pushing, driving, staff replacing, closing.

[Eliminator]

Thank you for your replies.

In reality purchasing a staking set for £200 isn't a bad buy, not as if, in reality it's dead money. Probably retains its value.

I bought this off Ebay for £52, even though the the chances of me using it are remote. I've seen them sell for a lot more. Many are junk , with parts missing. 

[mbwatch]

2 hours ago, Eliminator said:

I bought this off Ebay for £52

That is a fantastic deal. They rarely sell under $400 US now

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, mbwatch said:

That is a fantastic deal. They rarely sell under $400 US now

Good if you can get a well made one in good condition with all the extras. When they go for cheap they tend to have parts missing or broken, abused beds out of alignment runners. 

9 hours ago, Eliminator said:

Thank you for your replies.

In reality purchasing a staking set for £200 isn't a bad buy, not as if, in reality it's dead money. Probably retains its value.

I bought this off Ebay for £52, even though the the chances of me using it are remote. I've seen them sell for a lot more. Many are junk , with parts missing. 

You'll use it one day, i guarantee

[VWatchie]

11 hours ago, Eliminator said:

I bought this off Ebay for £52, even though the the chances of me using it are remote. I've seen them sell for a lot more. Many are junk , with parts missing.

If there is one tool I love more than any other it is my Jacot tool. We often emphasise the importance of perfect pivot holes, but the truth is we need perfect pivots as well.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

but the truth is we need perfect pivots as well.

Speak for yourself , mine was born perfect

[PQR]

With apologies to those who find poor workmanship viscerally painful (I admire you), hobbyists on a small budget might be interested in an existence poof that sometimes barrel bridge arbour bearings can be closed with only improvised tools, no staking set.

The watch is a Rotary bought for £5 on ebay with a Peseux 350 (those images on ranfft.org are from me). After cleaning and lubing, the watch would still not run for long because only a tiny wobble of the barrel causes it to rub.

Raiding my toolbox, the stakes were the wrong ends of HSS drill bits (2mm and 5/64"). They were already domed but I dressed them using a Felco diamond stone, bought for secateurs. One "stake" was held vertical-ish in a salvaged earthing block on top of a club hammer as an anvil. The bridge was held roughly in place on top with blu-tack / rodico while I held the second stake in place above. Then I got everything as aligned as possible freehand and did very gentle taps with a pin hammer, lots of rotating and testing.

It wasn't difficult to close the hole until the arbour wouldn't fit. I improvised a broach by stroking a screwdriver lengthwise with emery paper and carefully opened up the hole.

I had to tighten the bearings in the barrel and lid with similar bodges, including use of the jaws of a pin vice as a conical hollow stake. I reiterate: these are clearly execrable practices. But my watch is running nicely (for now!) and I enjoy not having spent money.

By the way, in the photo you can see where I reinstated a yellow colour to the stainless bracelet by heating on the electric stovetop and it went over to blue in places. Still looks better than bright silver.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 minutes ago, PQR said:

I improvised a broach by stroking a screwdriver lengthwise with emery paper and carefully opened up the hole.

I'm not entirely sure how this would work not being tapered to keep the ream central, i guess a little file here and a little file there , not ideal but it appears it worked for you. 

[PQR]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm not entirely sure how this would work not being tapered to keep the ream central

I was encouraged to give it a try by this section in "Staking Tools and How to Use Them" (1910)

though it's talking about pocket watches. (This publication is freely available online.) In my case, without any taper, I applied sideways pressure by hand. As you said, gently and little by little.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, PQR said:

I was encouraged to give it a try by this section in "Staking Tools and How to Use Them" (1910)

though it's talking about pocket watches. (This publication is freely available online.) In my case, without any taper, I applied sideways pressure by hand. As you said, gently and little by little.

Thats an interesting idea, i think you could broach as normal with a taper but the difficulty with a straight tool is not being able to make use of the even size variation possibly elongating the hole .

[rjenkinsgb]

4 hours ago, PQR said:

After cleaning and lubing, the watch would still not run for long because only a tiny wobble of the barrel causes it to rub.

One of my earliest ebay non-runner purchases was a Rotary with an Peseux 330 movement - with exactly the same problem! The barrel bridge was severely worn.

Now I have a staking set and other better tools, I'll have to get back on to that at some time!