Dial restoration - getting the right color?

[Watcherwoman]

I have restored some dials that were truly a disgrace to behold. I’ve gotten good at designing the dial markers, wording, numbers,etc and using water slide decals. I still am not happy with the color I get on my dials, however. I want to know how the dials of old obtained that lovely champagne or whitish sheen, as those are 2 things I have yet to be able to replicate. 
 

I’ve attached an example of the champagne color I want to obtain. The first photo is a photo I found online. The second photo is of my actual dial. Ignore my writing, it’s what I was using to help in my graphic design.
 

It’s a Hamilton medwick. I realize this is a repair forum, so I may not have any luck with this question, here. But if anyone can share any knowledge on the subject, I’d greatly appreciate it! I’ve searched high and low and can’t seem to get an answer. 

[8lackie]

Your post caught my eye. I'll say straight away I've no solutions, just some ideas.

What you're using now for your dial colors?

My background is art more than watchmaking I do a lot of photoshop. Smashing colors and textures together. But as I've gotten more and more into watches, I'm thinking about making dials. That said I have a book called paint recipes, Liz Wagstaff. pub. Chronicle Books.  The recipes are for paint finishes for your home, but in the search for things that work, I'll turn to anything. I thought of it because there are techniques called 'antiquing' 'aging', and 'crackle' perhaps in your journeys you've come across these ideas?  It seems to involve layering washes or textures over other washes and textures. Sometimes it's a disaster and sometimes it's glorious. 

 

[Watcherwoman]

51 minutes ago, 8lackie said:

Your post caught my eye. I'll say straight away I've no solutions, just some ideas.

What you're using now for your dial colors?

My background is art more than watchmaking I do a lot of photoshop. Smashing colors and textures together. But as I've gotten more and more into watches, I'm thinking about making dials. That said I have a book called paint recipes, Liz Wagstaff. pub. Chronicle Books.  The recipes are for paint finishes for your home, but in the search for things that work, I'll turn to anything. I thought of it because there are techniques called 'antiquing' 'aging', and 'crackle' perhaps in your journeys you've come across these ideas?  It seems to involve layering washes or textures over other washes and textures. Sometimes it's a disaster and sometimes it's glorious. 

 

Best I have done to date is to use some high pigment paint used for model making, put into an airbrush. Then the decal, Then spraying a clear coat over it. I have even used just regular white spray paint, and put it in the oven  at high temp to give it a nice patina look. But nothing achieves that sheen I have seen on vintage dials. I have silvering powder, but have yet to use it on a watch dial - I think it was used more on clocks, as it is definitely SILVER. 

[HectorLooi]

Have you watched Mark's video on dial restoration, where he re-silvers a dial then apply a heat transfer decal? Great video but it shows how tedious the process is and how it might be necessary to reboot and start over again.

BTW there are 2 philosophies on restoration. 

1) To restore to brand new, the day it left the factory look.

2) Keep the patina, as it tells the story of the article.

Which camp are you in?

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by HectorLooi
Typo

[8lackie]

@HectorLooiFascinating you bring this up. It seems verboten in the watch world to disturb the original finish. When I see a beautiful Porsche, it has been repainted, perhaps the original color or perhaps a new color. I can see the argument for both....sort of. Frankly I don't think the patinia on some watches looks all that great. But that's me.  The watches I see that have been colorized -it seems a host of Rolexes on auction sites, I'm not real impressed.  I think more attentionl should be given to colors, fonts, and hands and markers. 

Have you seen the watches made by AnOrdain in Scotland? Stunning. 

[Watcherwoman]

48 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Have you watched Mark's video on dial restoration, where he re-silvers a dial then apply a heat transfer decal? Great video but it shows how tedious the process is and how it might be necessary to reboot and start over again.

BTW there are 2 philosophies on restoration. 

1) To restore to brand new, the day it left the factory look.

2) Keep the patina, as it tells the story of the article.

Which camp are you in?

 

By chance do you have a link? Not sure I have seen it if he achieves any color other than flat white.

i love original patina, but when a dial is just something I’m not happy wearing, or completely illegible, I restore it. So I’m not in either camp - I just want it to be something I want to wear. Here are a couple photos of examples - these however are not my watches, they are watches someone asked me to restore. They chose the colors. They are happy, so I’m happy. 

8 minutes ago, 8lackie said:

@HectorLooiFascinating you bring this up. It seems verboten in the watch world to disturb the original finish. When I see a beautiful Porsche, it has been repainted, perhaps the original color or perhaps a new color. I can see the argument for both....sort of. Frankly I don't think the patinia on some watches looks all that great. But that's me.  The watches I see that have been colorized -it seems a host of Rolexes on auction sites, I'm not real impressed.  I think more attentionl should be given to colors, fonts, and hands and markers. 

Have you seen the watches made by AnOrdain in Scotland? Stunning. 

I am not familiar with them. Do they achieve the look I’m after?

it’s a matter of preference. Some watches I leave as is. This Hamilton, though, I won’t be happy wearing unless I restore it . 

 

[HectorLooi]

I also don't subscribe to any camp. My preference is to try to get it as aesthetically pleasing as possible without breaking the bank or my back.

Then there is the question of what materials and techniques are used for the restoration. Are they true to the period?

I tend to use modern materials. Definitely not museum quality restoration work. Haha.

As for the champagne colour that you are looking for, maybe you could try silvering the dial, then use a coloured lacquer overcoat. I've not tried it personally but I've cleaned many fake gold plated items that use this method.

[Watcherwoman]

36 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I also don't subscribe to any camp. My preference is to try to get it as aesthetically pleasing as possible without breaking the bank or my back.

Then there is the question of what materials and techniques are used for the restoration. Are they true to the period?

I tend to use modern materials. Definitely not museum quality restoration work. Haha.

As for the champagne colour that you are looking for, maybe you could try silvering the dial, then use a coloured lacquer overcoat. I've not tried it personally but I've cleaned many fake gold plated items that use this method.

Of course my decals are not true to the period…my understanding  is that it was a stamp? I would invest in a pad printer if I could find a cost effective way of obtaining the cliches. but if I could figure out what was used back then to get that coloring, I would try it!

[8lackie]

9 hours ago, Watcherwoman said:

By chance do you have a link? Not sure I have seen it if he achieves any color other than flat white.

i love original patina, but when a dial is just something I’m not happy wearing, or completely illegible, I restore it. So I’m not in either camp - I just want it to be something I want to wear. Here are a couple photos of examples - these however are not my watches, they are watches someone asked me to restore. They chose the colors. They are happy, so I’m happy. 

I am not familiar with them. Do they achieve the look I’m after?

it’s a matter of preference. Some watches I leave as is. This Hamilton, though, I won’t be happy wearing unless I restore it . 

 

Stunning work Watcherwoman! Those are really beautiful. 
I would agree you have to love it or it doesn't work. I have noticed in the watch world however patina is king. That is all well and good. But I think there can be other ways to do a dial. https://anordain.com/

and then there is https://mrjoneswatches.com/collections/all-watches

A patina can be lovely, but I'm in the camp of beauty and excitement. Restoration is great and perhaps the only choice in some cases, but Im more in the camp of outlaws. The sky should be the limit.
 

9 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I also don't subscribe to any camp. My preference is to try to get it as aesthetically pleasing as possible without breaking the bank or my back.

Then there is the question of what materials and techniques are used for the restoration. Are they true to the period?

I tend to use modern materials. Definitely not museum quality restoration work. Haha.

As for the champagne colour that you are looking for, maybe you could try silvering the dial, then use a coloured lacquer overcoat. I've not tried it personally but I've cleaned many fake gold plated items that use this method.

 

9 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I also don't subscribe to any camp. My preference is to try to get it as aesthetically pleasing as possible without breaking the bank or my back.

Then there is the question of what materials and techniques are used for the restoration. Are they true to the period?

I tend to use modern materials. Definitely not museum quality restoration work. Haha.

As for the champagne colour that you are looking for, maybe you could try silvering the dial, then use a coloured lacquer overcoat. I've not tried it personally but I've cleaned many fake gold plated items that use this method.

Mark Lovic does some amazing work, I had not seen this video. It is quite revelatory. I'v been taking his class on watch repair, and it has taught me a lot.

[tomh207]

Maybe if your looking for the old gold cooler it might be worth doing an experiment gilding one with false gold leaf (a lot of clock and watch stuff around dials etc. used to be done with what was/is called Dutch gold which was a substitute for the real thing)

 

HTH

 

Tom

[dadistic]

2 hours ago, tomh207 said:

Maybe if your looking for the old gold cooler it might be worth doing an experiment gilding one with false gold leaf (a lot of clock and watch stuff around dials etc. used to be done with what was/is called Dutch gold which was a substitute for the real thing)

I've seen these dials referred to as "gilt" dials, along "silvered" dials. Champagne is a color available in both the real and fake gold leaf.

Good Luck!

[JGrainger]

I've got my own topic about the finishing to make my own dial, funnily enough, based on a Hamilton too. One of the videos I've found is:

Unfortunately it doesn't really cover the lacquer. I think there's an industry-standard lacquer for watch dials, but I can't remember where I saw it, or what it was called (hence my own topic for that and another question).

Did you eventually restore your dial?