Problems With Elgin Grade 303, Model 3, Class 114, 1917

[TinTin]

I have started to look at my non-workin Elgin (details in title) pocket watch and discovered the following:

I was putting tention to the winder so I could hold the click "open" and unwind the mainspring in a controlled manner, I saw the balanceweel started moving, and the watch was running as long as I held tention to the winder. When I released the winder and the click was back in normal position (with only mechanical normal "running" tention to the gears) the balanceweel stopped again after 1-2 seconds. This was reproducable.

I hope you all understand what I was trying to explain.

Have anyone else experienced this, and what could the problem be?

 

 

[Gotwatch]

Sounds like you were applying tension in the wrong direction. That is all I can come up with on your description. Please provide more info. Does it run after wound? Is mainspring catching in barrel allowing winding? :)

 

Maybe someone with more insight to your question can reply.

[Gotwatch]

To add, if you're holding the crown, not the screw in the barrel wheel, to stop free wheeling of the spring, you may be putting some tension on the stem which will run the watch. Your mainspring may well be completely wound down.

[Marc]

Assuming the watch doesn't run but the main spring is fully wound (reasonable assumption as you are trying to let the spring down), the fact that the watch runs when additional power is applied through the crown suggests that there is unlikely to be too much amiss with the balance / escapement, rather that there is excess power loss through the gear train sufficient to stop the movement. Even a totally worn out main spring should get the balance moving (albeit with low amplitude) if the train is in good order.

The possible causes of power loss within the train are numerous and include;

 

1. Dried up / old lubricant or other contaminant fouling the pivots

2. Bent, badly worn, or broken pivots

3. Cracked or chipped pivot jewels

4. Insufficient end shake or misalignment of wheels due to poor workmanship / damaged plates or bridges

 

This is pretty much the order of frequency in which I encounter power loss issues with degraded lubricant and dirt accounting for probably >80% of the problems.

My first course of action would be to strip and thoroughly clean the movement which will solve 1. in my list.

Then a careful inspection of each part under magnification prior to assembly should identify any issues described in 2. and 3. which could then be remedied.

Then I would reassemble the train all the way from the barrel through to the escape wheel and check for free running. I do exactly as Geo describes in another post, I use a rubber bulb type air blower to gently puff air onto the rim of the escape wheel. If all is well the whole train should move easily all the way back to the barrel, and it should work in both directions. If it doesn't then I strip it back down again and reassemble one wheel at a time, testing at each step for free movement to identify where the problem starts. I can then try and work out what the actual problem is and how to rectify it.

 

Finally, once I am happy that the train is free running, the click and ratchet wheel go back on and I install the pallet. At this stage, with just a small amount of power on the main spring (less than a quarter of a turn usually), the pallet should snap across between the bankings when nudged with a dry oiler if all is well.

 

If I get to this stage and all is fine then I would expect the watch to run when the balance is installed. If it doesn't then my focus usually shifts to the balance.

 

Hope this helps.

[clockboy]

Yep I agree follow Marc,s advice just make sure the mainspring is let down before the strip down.

[TinTin]

Thank you @Marc, and your assumption is correct. :-)

 

 

The possible causes of power loss within the train are numerous and include;

 

1. Dried up / old lubricant or other contaminant fouling the pivots

2. Bent, badly worn, or broken pivots

3. Cracked or chipped pivot jewels

4. Insufficient end shake or misalignment of wheels due to poor workmanship / damaged plates or bridges

 

This is super.

 

Yesterday I stripped down and cleaned the movement with a bath in denatured alcohol. The old dirt and oil residues that was not removed by the bath, was removed by carefully using a sharpened pegwood. (#1 check)

Then I also looked carefully at all pivots and alle the teeth on the gears. Everything looked ok to me. (#2 check)

There are only 7 jewels in this PW, but I forgot to check them. (#3 to be done)

 

 

Then I would reassemble the train all the way from the barrel through to the escape wheel and check for free running. I do exactly as Geo describes in another post, I use a rubber bulb type air blower to gently puff air onto the rim of the escape wheel. If all is well the whole train should move easily all the way back to the barrel, and it should work in both directions. If it doesn't then I strip it back down again and reassemble one wheel at a time, testing at each step for free movement to identify where the problem starts. I can then try and work out what the actual problem is and how to rectify it.

 

This is a super tip. I will do this and see how it goes.

 

I also see that there are issues with 7-jewels pocketwatches (http://www.pocketwatchrepair.com/how-to/seven-jewel.php), so I will check this extra carefully.

Edited June 4, 2015 by TinTin

[Marc]

Something else worth checking given the lower jewel count of this movement is the un-jewelled pivot holes in the plates/bridges.

Un-jewelled holes will wear much more quickly that jewelled pivots, especially if the lubrication dries up, resulting in the pivot hole becoming oval. This will affect the engagement of the wheels which could cause energy loss within the train if it doesn't lock it up all together.

You will need to inspect the pivot holes with a loupe, and if they are badly worn, the only answer is to bush them. 

[TinTin]

Thank you Marc!

 

I also read about this in the link in my previous posting. So this is something I will look for with argus eyes.

[TinTin]

I have done some work to my Elgin, and this is the situation now:

 

 

The possible causes of power loss within the train are numerous and include;

 

1. Dried up / old lubricant or other contaminant fouling the pivots

2. Bent, badly worn, or broken pivots

3. Cracked or chipped pivot jewels

4. Insufficient end shake or misalignment of wheels due to poor workmanship / damaged plates or bridges

#1 Checked, cleaned.

#2 Checked, not an issue.

#3 Checked, not an issue

#4 Checked, not an issue

 

The watch is now running (https://youtu.be/RY4CgX58qmE). One thing I have NOT done is to lubricate. I have not bought the necessary yet.

 

 

BUT - this is the issue now:

When it lays flat, it runs  (even though it runs tic-tac-----tic-tac----tic-tac, not tic-tac-tic-tac-tic-tac). If I hold it vertical, it stops after 3-4 seconds...

 

Is the lubrication the only thing missing here to have it running in vertical position too?

 

 

[TinTin]

 

 

Un-jewelled holes will wear much more quickly that jewelled pivots, especially if the lubrication dries up, resulting in the pivot hole becoming oval.

 

And I also checked this. All holes were circular, not oval.

[Marc]

A total lack of lubrication won't help the situation but it is encouraging that it is now running.

 

Your description of the way that it is running (uneven beat or the ticks being longer than the tocks) strongly suggests that it is out of beat. This will result in the watch not self starting and running unreliably, especially if the error is significant.

I am assuming that the balance cock does not have an adjustable stud mounting for the hair spring in which case the position of the hair spring on the balance staff will need to be adjusted at the collet.

If you have a timing machine then accurately measuring the beat error is simple. If not then you can get pretty close to correctly adjusted beat by eye and ear. Either way getting it sufficiently in beat that you can't hear the error should help the watch to run properly. As will a drop of oil.

[clockboy]

Lubrication is not the answer it sounds like it's out of beat.

See marks vid.

[TinTin]

I will buy the necessary oils etc, just have to get time to do it. :-)

 

And I also have plans to buy a TimeGrapher 1000. This way I could measure more correct.

 

---

 

But - what about the watch stopping when I lift it up in vertical position? What do I look for to solve it?

[clockboy]

Get a visual of the roller jewel it should (at rest) sit in the middle of the banking pins.

[TinTin]

Ok, I will try to look for it and the position in resting-mode.