Good watch movements for the beginning watch repairer

[VWatchie]

A week ago, I measured an ETA 2824-2 housed in a Sinn 556 A watch, and the results were pretty amazing. I published the results in this post. Anyway, this made me reflect more deeply on the performance of Russian watch movements which I appreciate so much, and here follows my reflection.

I have always maintained, and I still do, that Russian movements such as Vostok, Poljot, and Raketa are an excellent option for the beginning watch repairer. The reasons for this are several. They are all Swiss in their basic design. That is, they all use the Swiss lever escapement, but compared to Swiss movements like ETA, Sellita, Unitas, etc., they are usually just about a tenth of the cost of their Swiss counterparts when it comes to movements and parts.

The beginning watch repairer is essentially bound to make mistakes resulting in lost and damaged parts, but when the cost is counted in cents, rather than in dollars, it doesn’t hurt anything but possibly one’s pride. Add to this those Russian watches can be very fun and cool in their design (like the Vostok Komandirskies) and ingenious in their function (like the Vostok Amphibians) and there’s very little speaking against them. Perhaps best of all is that once you have built up your skills and experience it will basically be no different to take on any Swiss lever escapement movement, like the famous ETA 2824, to name just a single example.

So, aren’t there any downsides to these Russian calibres? Indeed, but not so much for the beginning watch repairer where the overall goal is essentially to be able to take the movement apart, clean it, lubricate it, and assemble it. In those cases, getting the watch to run reasonably well again, without introducing errors is definitely a success and very educational.

No, the problem with these Russian movements arises when you have become proficient at servicing and repairing. Why? Because you might be thinking (like I pretty much did), that once you’ve serviced it to (near) perfection, it would perform better than from the factory, but of course, it won’t. So, when putting it on the timing machine its performance will still not show the kind of results that you would usually get from a healthy Swiss movement, and that makes it a lot harder to assess the success of the service. I remember @Endeavor once remarking to me when I was frustrated over a Vostok movement that I was working on, that “a Vostok is not a Rolex”, but the remark passed me by at that time. However, finally, the penny dropped.

You might even have burnished the pivots, and adjusted the end shake and side shake to perfection (like I have). Still, the timing machine results are erratic. The rate and amplitude vary in a single position, and the positional errors can be quite dramatic. The reason for this, I would very much suspect, is that the manufacturing of Russian parts is far from perfect. The train wheels might be slightly skewed, the wheel teeth and pinions leaves not perfectly designed, cut, and polished, the staff pivots not equally rounded, the balance wheel rather sloppily poised, and so on. So, in my experience assessing the success or failure of a service/repair on a Swiss movement is generally far less challenging.

Nevertheless, these Russian movements can be regulated to be very accurate, provided they’re worn and wound consistently. I’ve had Vostok movements averaging like quartz in accuracy. In this respect, Swiss movements (and high-quality Japanese movements) are much more forgiving. That is if you don’t wind a Swiss movement consistently and/or store it overnight in different positions it won’t affect the timekeeping as much as it would for a Russian movement.

So anyway, when you can pick up a 200 meters water resistant brand-new all stainless steel Vostok Amphibian diver watch for less than a $100 I’d say it is still a fantastic option, and eBay is full of these Russian movements and parts for basically next to nothing when compared to their ditto Swiss.

In conclusion, Russian watch movements are a great start but don’t expect the precision of Swiss (or Japanese) movements, not even after a perfect service.
 

[Nucejoe]

 I add  malnija pocket watches  to the above list, big movement and easy to work on, they come in flat and overcoil hairspring versions.

Sooner or later a beginer is up to replacing his first balance staff with an overcoil and this doesn't have to hurt his wallet much with malnija.

I think the only set back of malnija or other Russian movements that meets the eyes of  non-experts is poor polishing, so much so that gears seem to sort of self-polish  with use. 

 

 

 

[grsnovi]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

downsides to these Russian calibres

One downside: Check where they are coming from if buying on eBay. Many are coming out of Ukraine. I'm still waiting for a Pobeda that I ordered using BUY IT NOW on 5/5 and which the seller delivered to ship on 5/7. The seller has a great history and did nothing wrong. I wasn't paying any attention to wear he was - I just liked the look of the watch and the price was irresistible. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

A week ago, I measured an ETA 2824-2 housed in a Sinn 556 A watch, and the results were pretty amazing. I published the results in this post. Anyway, this made me reflect more deeply on the performance of Russian watch movements which I appreciate so much, and here follows my reflection.

I have always maintained, and I still do, that Russian movements such as Vostok, Poljot, and Raketa are an excellent option for the beginning watch repairer. The reasons for this are several. They are all Swiss in their basic design. That is, they all use the Swiss lever escapement, but compared to Swiss movements like ETA, Sellita, Unitas, etc., they are usually just about a tenth of the cost of their Swiss counterparts when it comes to movements and parts.

The beginning watch repairer is essentially bound to make mistakes resulting in lost and damaged parts, but when the cost is counted in cents, rather than in dollars, it doesn’t hurt anything but possibly one’s pride. Add to this those Russian watches can be very fun and cool in their design (like the Vostok Komandirskies) and ingenious in their function (like the Vostok Amphibians) and there’s very little speaking against them. Perhaps best of all is that once you have built up your skills and experience it will basically be no different to take on any Swiss lever escapement movement, like the famous ETA 2824, to name just a single example.

So, aren’t there any downsides to these Russian calibres? Indeed, but not so much for the beginning watch repairer where the overall goal is essentially to be able to take the movement apart, clean it, lubricate it, and assemble it. In those cases, getting the watch to run reasonably well again, without introducing errors is definitely a success and very educational.

No, the problem with these Russian movements arises when you have become proficient at servicing and repairing. Why? Because you might be thinking (like I pretty much did), that once you’ve serviced it to (near) perfection, it would perform better than from the factory, but of course, it won’t. So, when putting it on the timing machine its performance will still not show the kind of results that you would usually get from a healthy Swiss movement, and that makes it a lot harder to assess the success of the service. I remember @Endeavor once remarking to me when I was frustrated over a Vostok movement that I was working on, that “a Vostok is not a Rolex”, but the remark passed me by at that time. However, finally, the penny dropped.

You might even have burnished the pivots, and adjusted the end shake and side shake to perfection (like I have). Still, the timing machine results are erratic. The rate and amplitude vary in a single position, and the positional errors can be quite dramatic. The reason for this, I would very much suspect, is that the manufacturing of Russian parts is far from perfect. The train wheels might be slightly skewed, the wheel teeth and pinions leaves not perfectly designed, cut, and polished, the staff pivots not equally rounded, the balance wheel rather sloppily poised, and so on. So, in my experience assessing the success or failure of a service/repair on a Swiss movement is generally far less challenging.

Nevertheless, these Russian movements can be regulated to be very accurate, provided they’re worn and wound consistently. I’ve had Vostok movements averaging like quartz in accuracy. In this respect, Swiss movements (and high-quality Japanese movements) are much more forgiving. That is if you don’t wind a Swiss movement consistently and/or store it overnight in different positions it won’t affect the timekeeping as much as it would for a Russian movement.

So anyway, when you can pick up a 200 meters water resistant brand-new all stainless steel Vostok Amphibian diver watch for less than a $100 I’d say it is still a fantastic option, and eBay is full of these Russian movements and parts for basically next to nothing when compared to their ditto Swiss.

In conclusion, Russian watch movements are a great start but don’t expect the precision of Swiss (or Japanese) movements, not even after a perfect service.
 

Agree Watchie with the choice for beginners, a Sekonda was my first repair. I have a few Russian now. Some old  Sekondas, a Boctok scuba dude and a Vostok Ambhibia. And today another Boctok diver, 40 years old never uncased and is the most healthy and accurate watch i now own. TG trace half an hour after a near full wind. Accurate to the second, an amplitude I've never seen before, it did fluctuate a little and at one point must have been banging the opposite side of the pallet fork at 345 %. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

TG trace half an hour after a near full wind. Accurate to the second, an amplitude I've never seen before, it did fluctuate a little and at one point must have been banging the opposite side of the pallet fork at 345 %. 

I would assume that is a horizontal position!? Rate and amplitude somewhat fluctuate. Looks pretty typical (although slightly better) to what we're used to seeing from these movements and is a pretty good example of what I was talking about. Compare that to the TG readings of my "Sinn" ETA 2824-2 (linked to in my first post).

I don't think any re-banking occurred even at the 345 degrees as the lift angle of the Vostok 24xx (and I would believe the 22xx) calibres is 42 degrees (not 52 degrees). In reality, you're probably looking at an amplitude of somewhere between 270 and 310 degrees, which is very good indeed.

Yes, that watch has the potential to be very accurate!

[Neverenoughwatches]

31 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I would assume that is a horizontal position!? Rate and amplitude somewhat fluctuate. Looks pretty typical (although slightly better) to what we're used to seeing from these movements and is a pretty good example of what I was talking about. Compare that to the TG readings of my "Sinn" ETA 2824-2 (linked to in my first post).

I don't think any re-banking occurred even at the 345 degrees as the lift angle of the Vostok 24xx (and I would believe the 22xx) calibres is 42 degrees (not 52 degrees). In reality, you're probably looking at an amplitude of somewhere between 270 and 310 degrees, which is very good indeed.

Yes, that watch has the potential to be very accurate!

This is now at 42 Degrees so around a 50' drop in amplitude, not super smooth running but its never been touched since it left the factory 40 years ago ?  Positional changes do lower the amp by around 20 degress and timing does fluctuate but not massively 8 -12 seconds except crown up drops to around 210 amp and nearly 100 seconds faster

Edited June 5, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Kalanag]

In the ‘90s I purchased a brand new alarm wrist watch for just around DM40,- (€20,-). Inside I found the Russion version of the well known AS 1475. Unfortunalely the square hole in the ratchet wheel (alarm spring) was stamped that much out of center that the winding wheel fell out of engagement each turn 

Nevertheless I like Russion watches due to their priceworthiness and Swiss based design. After the „iron courtain“ had dropped in 1990 I could buy brand new Russion watches and chronographs for nearly nothing at flee markets in Berlin. At that time I had to spend much more money for srewdrivers, tweezers, case openers and oil to do my first steps in watch making. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Kalanag

[VWatchie]

10 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

its never been touched since it left the factory 40 years ago ?

If that is so it must be considered a miracle. I thought it had already been serviced. I believe synthetic oils were used already in the 1980s but I doubt the Russians used synthetic oils as it would increase the cost, but who knows!? It would be very interesting to see its performance (in all positions) before and after service. Are you planning to service it?

Edited June 6, 2022 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

41 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

If that is so it must be considered a miracle. I thought it had already been serviced. I believe synthetic oils were used already in the 1980s but I doubt the Russians used synthetic oils as it would increase the cost, but who knows!? It would be very interesting to see its performance (in all positions) before and after service. Are you planning to service it?

I will do at some point but i have others i want to finish off first that were put aside waiting for parts to appear. I'm pretty sure it hasnt been opened. There is only a tad of evidence that it might have been and that is the marks to the balance cock screw with i think is down to a brass shim being fitted at the factory. Its positional readings arnt too good, the worst being crown up. Beat error quite poor throughout all postions. My intial surprise of amplitude was actually down to my incorrect setting of the lift angle which you pointed out for me, thank you Watchie.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I will do at some point but i have others i want to finish off first that were put aside waiting for parts to appear.

When you get around to it I'd be very interested to see the result. No hurry!

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

There is only a tad of evidence that it might have been and that is the marks to the balance cock screw with i think is down to a brass shim being fitted at the factory.

Those marks could have been there from the very start. The factory in Chistopol isn't exactly known for its QC  And yes, the brass shim is always there. Of the Vostoks I've been working on (quite a few) all but one had that shim.

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

My intial surprise of amplitude was actually down to my incorrect setting of the lift angle which you pointed out for me, thank you Watchie.

Sure, no worries! Over 270 degrees is still quite amazing if it indeed hasn't been touched for 40 years or so.

Edited June 6, 2022 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

50 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Sure, no worries! Over 270 degrees is still quite amazing if it indeed hasn't been touched for 40 years or so.

Im fairly sure of that. There were no marks to the case back or screw ring which was pretty tight and had like a vacuum schlurp when the gasket lifted with the back. No scratch marks inside apart from the balance cock screw and a couple of very minor ones in that area. Its possible that a very good service was performed at sum point but i am leaning towards it never being opened. The oil is still present on the shock jewel and is an almost perfect circle in the center approx a third of the diameter of the jewel. This i was more amazed at than the tg results as the bezel plating has some wear but nothing heavy, crystal has a few light scratches. The only heavyish wear is on the crown though not too bad. It has probably not had a great deal of use, tbh its a little ugly but i dont mind that too much i will still wear it when i decide on a strap. Its only issue is the bezel, it has some play, im hoping that its a simple retaining spring replacement not too difficult to find. Ive not even looked at that problem yet as i dont want to get too involved before i return to and finish a few others. What are my chances of dating it, i was guessing at made in the 80s . No marks besides the encircled B under the balance. I will do a little research later and post up what i find. As always Watchie nice to converse with you.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches