Chinese ETA clones

[JGaiser]

I've picked up a few of the Chinese ETA clones (6497, 2824 and 6498) and I've noticed comments online that these calibers are manufactured without lubrication. Is this true, and should I not be attempting to running these until they can be disassembled and lubricated? The 6497 is what Mark uses for his online classes.

[gbyleveldt]

I picked up the ST3620 (6498) and, now that you mention it, I can’t remember it being lubricated, or rather, obviously. Maybe it was properly lubricated and not overly so, as you’d think from a Chinese clone. Truth be told, I used it in Mark’s course and the first step was stripping it, so it was neither here or there in my case. I did put it on a Timegrapher prior to stripping, and after assembly, and in both cases the movement performed the same amplitude wise. I’d guess it was then lubricated?

Not an overly helpful answer I know, but maybe a good idea to strip, clean and lubricate anyway? We can all use the practice lol

Edited February 1, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[jdm]

On 2/1/2022 at 6:11 AM, gbyleveldt said:

 I did put it on a Timegrapher prior to stripping, and after assembly, and in both cases the movement performed the same amplitude wise. I’d guess it was then lubricated?

If it was so simple. There is no way to tell beforehand with Chinese mov.ts, first of all they are graded and sold accordingly without disclosure, they can differ from a batch to another depending on the rush and other elements as in how dirty the air at the assembly place, which oils if any they used, etc.
Anyway a couple of things are sure, a totally dry mov.t that is otherwise fine can run very well both on the timegrapher and the wrist. And the single lubrication element that can give a measurable boost to amplitude is using 9415 on the pallets, something best observed after 48h.

 

[spectre6000]

There are also a lot of manufacturers making clones of the old ETA movements. The patents expired a while ago, so it's totally kosher to do so. In addition to variances between runs from a given manufacturer, there are most significant variations between manufacturers. The specific manufacturer of a Chinese ETA clone is rarely disclosed.

[jdm]

2 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

There are also a lot of manufacturers making clones of the old ETA movements. The patents expired a while ago, so it's totally kosher to do so. 

That say about "expired patents" is all over the watch enthusiasts forums, but is simply incorrect, because nothing specific to the 2824 had been patented ever, anywhere. The reason being is that everything the 2824 has, had been used before already by ETA or somebody else, and can't be patented..

[JGaiser]

Thanks for everybody's comments. I think I'll just not try to run them until I can strip them down and lubricate on rebuild.

[spectre6000]

7 hours ago, jdm said:

That say about "expired patents" is all over the watch enthusiasts forums, but is simply incorrect, because nothing specific to the 2824 had been patented ever, anywhere. The reason being is that everything the 2824 has, had been used before already by ETA or somebody else, and can't be patented..

So would it be kosher to copy, say, a Rolex (whatever latest caliber gets Rolex people hot and bothered) movement note for note? If so, why is that not the movement everyone is copying? What's so special about the 2824? I can't fathom anything about the 2824 that makes it especially worthwhile other than it's a fairly modern movement that's unencumbered by legal complications.

[jdm]

10 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

So would it be kosher to copy, say, a Rolex (whatever latest caliber gets Rolex people hot and bothered) movement note for note?

If there is no explicit and comprovable registered Intellectual Property, like a patent, design, trademark, etc, anything can be legally copied and commerced. The below is clearly counterfeiting because even if not it has all the markings, but if it didn't there wouldn't be much that Rolex could claim against.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003629774135.html

Same story about complete watches, cases, bracelets, etc. Hommage watches are legal as long they don't carry any registered logo or trademark.

[clockboy]

The subject of cloned parts,watch movements and tools has been covered here many times. The BHI has regular reviews of tools that include the cloned tools. Always what is found there is a difference in build quality and materials used. I would expect the cloned watch movements will give the same results. 

[spectre6000]

OK. So, business mind kicking in here... A [b][i][u]SUBSTANTIAL[/b][/i][/u] percentage of the market price of a number of the name brands, i.e. Rolex, is tied up in the logo (I'm intentionally oversimplifying, but not by much). What's to stop someone from making an exact copy of the same level of quality, and selling it for a more justifiable price? You're just as deep in the manufacturing costs, but engineering/R&D is effectively just the cost of getting your hands on one to reverse engineer it. It wouldn't be an homage or anything. Hell, be transparent about it: "We copied [such and such caliber] to the last detail with the same level of quality, and just didn't put the badge on it." Completely legal according to the above. Why would that not sell like hotcakes? Faux exclusivity, marque chauvinism, etc. are certainly selling points for a lot of people, but for what I imagine is majority, it would be a no brainer.

[TimpanogosSlim]

The 649x clones are made at least both by Seagull in Tianjin and by, someone else, in Hangzhou. I hear that the Hangzhou versions are 18000bph while the Tianjin versions are 21600bph like a 649x-2. 

I have a nameless, sterile-dial b-uhr homage with a decorated 3/4 bridge 6498 clone running at 21600bph that has been a reliable and accurate timepiece for at least 10 years. As soon as i produce a serviced vintage 6498, I'll put that in that watch and send out the chinese movement in an old Arnex case for a 12yo niece to cosplay with. 

It is very frustrating that China Sea-Gull, in their position as possibly the 1st or 2nd largest producer of mechanical watch parts in the world, declines to brand their movements when selling them into the secondary market. So unless you bought a whole watch direct from Sea-Gull's official site, who knows what is in it? 

Though Cousins does sell some Sea-Gull movements and i trust that they have done their due diligence. 

ANYWAY. 

What i heard is that sometimes chinese movements are shipped unlubricated because paying someone to do it correctly costs extra, and paying someone to lubricate them who doesn't know what they are doing just lowers the value. But like any other product you can buy direct from china, the issue is that you can buy at any level of quality. Maybe the recommendation is to buy the seller. 

The problem with the 2824 clones is that mostly what you get is a DG2813 or lesser chinese movement with "2824" or "2836" stamped on it. Or you pay Cousins 80 pounds for a TY2100. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by TimpanogosSlim