Identifying KIF Jewel Size

[mistergrumpy]

This is a spin off post from another I created over vintage part numbers purely because I got this far and now need an answer of a different nature that I'm sure someone will know.

I need to order a KIF Trior spring and jewels. Cousins show the below table but I don't understand it, can anyone advise?

Left hand table. If I identify COTE A as 1.25mm (which annoyingly I can only do by ordering the brass setting and measuring, then making another order) does this mean that I therefore need a 1-2 spring, a 515 endstone and a 302 jewel?

If so what does the BS line mean as this seems to contradict the previous 1.25mm mentioned.

[clockboy]

KIF shock springs come in several incarnations, first thing is to determine 

which style you need.

They can look a bit similar if you haven't dealt with them a lot (and if you are 

reading this, that is likely the case), so try to find a reference for your specific 

movement if possible. If not, you will need to measure the old spring.

Replacements are ordered with the style prefix, (1=Trior, 3=Elastor, 

4=Satellor, 6=Ultraflex); followed by a size reference (1=1.30, 2=1.60, 3=1.90, 

4=2.10, 6=2.30) My observation is that sizes 1 to 3 increase by increments of 

0.3, and 4+ increase by 0.2

The complete part number will be style-size e.g.: 3-2 will be a 1.60mm 

Elastor

Which is the part we need in this case.

The Bulova-KIF reference material I was able to find did not include either the 

OP's 11ANACB or the 11AOACB that I was seeking originally. By checking 

Bulova service manuals, I was able to determine that these two used the 

same lower setting (112) as the 11ANACD which is listed in this reference, 

and uses the 3-2 KIF spring.

[mistergrumpy]

In my case I am missing the whole setting, jewels and spring but from my research I know I need a Trior spring. I've found the setting listed on Cousins website but it doesn't list any specifications for it so I face ordering it and then trying to measure it before making another order for the jewels and spring and I would rather order everything at once.

If I measured the setting in order to identify the spring size, as this is the easiest measurement to obtain, would it then be a case of looking across the table above to identify the jewel sizes? 

So for example if we say I need a 1-2 spring, the table suggests I would therefore need a 515 and a 302 jewel? Is this correct?

The anomaly in that method would be if I actually did need a 1-2 spring because the bottom line of the Trior section goes on  to list a 508 and a 312 jewel. 

 

[Klassiker]

Also on the Cousins site you can find this download, which tells us that BS means a special form of the chaton.KIF-ID Tabelle.pdf

On 7/5/2021 at 6:40 PM, mistergrumpy said:

If I identify COTE A as 1.25mm (which annoyingly I can only do by ordering the brass setting and measuring, then making another order) does this mean that I therefore need a 1-2 spring, a 515 endstone and a 302 jewel?

Yes, that is right, but if I had to guess the size, I'd go with 1-3 as it seems more common (used in the ETA 2824 for example).

[mistergrumpy]

Great stuff thanks. I'mglad you agree with my thought, it helps a lot. I haven't seen that download. I suppose the next question, our of curiosity, is what does P stand for?! 

[Klassiker]

P?

[WatchMaker]

Hi @mistergrumpy

Just approaching this from a different angle. The movement you're trying to find the right KIF part isn't mentioned in this thread but looking at your other posts it's for an ORIS 725 right?

Looking at the ORIS 725 parts list it indicates the KIF aspect is the same as for the 670 calibre. Cousins has lists of manufacturer/movement KIF parts which for ORIS is https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/categories/1419_Kif Omega, Oris, Patek, Piguet.pdf. And specifically for the 670 (and thus 725)...

[mistergrumpy]

That's it! I have actually seen that sheet too whilst scouring through everyhting? How on earth did I overlook it?! Thanks ever so much.

 

The P was because it lists a 160, 160 BS and a 160P.

[Klassiker]

On 7/6/2021 at 8:59 PM, mistergrumpy said:

what does P stand for?! 

Sorry, no idea!

[WatchMaker]

Funny in this day and age that information on a company's own website can still be so sparse and unhelpful. Poor marks to https://kif-parechoc.ch

Anyway, the P turns out to be "portée au bloc de la platine" = "shoulder on block setting at movement plate" if that helps any for future reference!

[mistergrumpy]

SO I just wanted to add a little more in case anyone reads back at some point and references this. 

So, I ordered part 1297, Parechoc Kif Trior For Balance, Upper from Cousins. It ws actually 1297, Oris 601 and that's important becuse it would seem that the way Oris reference their part numbers is to use the common "1297" but then just add the movement calibre number which makes all the difference.

Now, I emailed Cousins to ask if the order came fitted with jewels or was just the brass setting. They weren't any help and just referred me to the parts diagram which only listed Parechoc Kif Trior For Balance, Upper SO, I ordered that and the hole jewel, cap jewel and spring as the diagram above for the 670 calibre. Not cheap as everything comes in packs of 5.

When my items arrived the Parechoc Kif Trior For Balance, Upper came fitted with jewels! The jewels I'd bought are tiny. I haven't tried them on the balance staff yet because they are so minute.

So, the Parechoc Kif Trior For Balance, Upper is too large by around 1mm across the diameter and it would seem that actually there is calibre 670 as I was trying to see if I could just buy a brass setting. There's a 671 and 672 but I'm not sure if they're right. 

The upshot is I'm back at square one and can't return what I bought as they don't accept it on these. Lesson learned and I hope this helps someone in the future. The hunt is still on!

[WatchMaker]

You've every right to be grumpy @mistergrumpy

No-one can say we didn't do enough diligence and it's a shame to hear that Cousins have been less than helpful. If I had an Oris in my parts bin I'd send it to you but unfortunately I don't.

Well done for persevering and I hope you get there.