3D printed RS mainspring winder project for hobbyists

[gpraceman]

2 hours ago, Zero said:

Hi. Some points that may be of help:

1. How did you latch the arbour hook to the mainspring? Please refer to the wiki for diagrams: Attaching-the-Arbour-Hook-to-the-Mainspring.
   If you used incorrect styles when latching, the hook will get mangled and the spring may deform.
2. From your pictures, its seems like you are working on a vintage mainspring. The old types are made from a different material from modern mainsprings, and get "tired" or "set". They may deform/break no matter what you do, due to age. Please refer to the wiki: Selecting-the-correct-winder-size-for-your-mainspring

 

This is intentional by design, to allow for varying sizes for the dowel pins (you may choose to use thicker ones), and also to be forgiving to folks with lower end printers. There should be minimal friction between the dowel pin and the plunger to allow unobstructed winding action, so a little slop is better than a tight fit.

As far as I can recall, I had the arbors in correctly.  I'll have to make better sure of that from here on out.

These springs were from some cheap eBay watches that I got to learn on, so a broken mainspring is no big deal.  I'm sure that trying a second time with the one that broke didn't help.

[Zero]

On 4/19/2023 at 5:36 AM, gpraceman said:

As far as I can recall, I had the arbors in correctly.  I'll have to make better sure of that from here on out.

If your staple is mangled after the first try, then it may very likely be that you did not.

I recommend going through the diagrams on the Github wiki: https://github.com/vishnu350/rs-mainspring-winder/wiki/Attaching-the-Arbour-Hook-to-the-Mainspring

Managed to find time to update it. It now includes a description on how to select the correct arbour hole distance on the winder base part, be sure to check it out and practice on old mainsprings.

I'm reluctant to post the diagrams here because edits are not allowed, in case I made a mistake or got the drawings mixed up. My first post here is still stuck on the old version of the winder with an outdated description.

[Zero]

Latest version v0.96 released. So far very few complaints so I'm tagging this as a stable version.
Download link: https://github.com/vishnu350/rs-mainspring-winder/releases/latest/download/rs-winder.zip

Full list of changes/bugfixes from v0.86:
- Added 3MF file generation, use these instead of STL if possible (issue #14).
- Added view hole to bowl so that the depth can be seen (issue #15).
- Fixed text positioning and depth, prints correctly now (issue #10).
- Changed font to better type for printing, adjust size.
- Fixed bowl fillet options for best functionality.
- Fixed bowl depth for ideal spring extrusion.
- Made barrel bowl a little bit tighter to fit to reduce play.
- Fixed teeth clearance to have a slightly tighter fit.
- Added README with version text and license in zip file.
- Updated version text to be embossed instead of extruded, and fixed text size to be larger (issue #10).
- Added barrel wall shave pocket to limit the barrel wall thickness to significantly improve fitting in mainsprings prior to winding (issue #3)
- Retired winder base with arbour, and added M1.5, M2.0, M2.5 and M3.0 dowel pin options (issue #4 & #5).
- Retired old style barrel bowl, completed setter bowl changes, invert it to become a placer base (issue #7).
- Increased fillet sizes for bowl and housing barrel to improve print quality (issue #11).
- Updated housing barrel labels to use MXX.X diameter convention instead of XX.Xmm.
- Included AndyShap's updated StapleJig to simplify cutting the staple pins, with four different staple height options on each corner.
- Size written on winder is now accurate, disabled shrink parameter (issue #9).
- Slightly increased the wall thickness values.
- Slightly increased the extrusion depth for the setter bowl.
- Reduced the depth of the printed text.

Kind folk who helped to test and share their findings on Reddit:
- https://www.reddit.com/r/watchmaking/comments/whfxna/amazing_3d_printed_mainspring_winder
- https://www.reddit.com/r/watchmaking/comments/11u2vti/3d_printed_mainspring_winding_set
- https://www.reddit.com/r/watchmaking/comments/1250w78/today_ive_tried_the_rswinder_a_3d_printed_spring

Edited July 10, 2023 by Zero

[GLindsay]

On 9/7/2022 at 8:34 PM, rossjackson01 said:

Hello. Does anyone know of anyone who is printing in the UK and offering the set for sale?

Hi folks - I’m new to the forum, and a beginner to the hobby. Hence, I’ve been keen to find accessible tools & solutions, given the costs involved for mainspring winders. I recently came across the RS mainspring winder project - I think it’s a great idea and I’ve been fascinated to read through the history in this thread to understand the evolution of the design.

I was able to purchase a starter set in the UK from eBay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175589279744

It’s also possible to order just additional housings and plungers in whatever sizes required - but you need to contact the seller directly & they will create a listing for you.

All orders were well made and safely delivered. My initial springs were both of the ‘vintage’ variety as described by @DavidJ so I had a fair amount of sweating while I got to grips with it, but after growing a third hand I was able to get my spring wound and installed in the barrel.

Edited July 10, 2023 by GLindsay
No space after the URL

[AndyShap]

3 minutes ago, GLindsay said:

Hi folks - I’m new to the forum, and a beginner to the hobby. Hence, I’ve been keen to find accessible tools & solutions, given the costs involved for mainspring winders. I recently came across the RS mainspring winder project - I think it’s a great idea and I’ve been fascinated to read through the history in this thread to understand the evolution of the design.

I was able to purchase a starter set in the UK from eBay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175589279744

It’s also possible to order just additional housings and plungers in whatever sizes required - but you need to contact the seller directly & they will create a listing for you.

All orders were well made and safely delivered. My initial springs were both of the ‘vintage’ variety as described by @DavidJ so I had a fair amount of sweating while I got to grips with it, but after growing a third hand I was able to get my spring wound and installed in the barrel.

I offer these winders individually , or as a complete set. I ship from the US, so you'll need to see if shipping will work out for you:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/125578735361
https://www.ebay.com/itm/125428348675

[gpraceman]

I struggled with the staples, trying to hook them to the mainsprings.  So, I thought that I would test out a hybrid approach.  Using the Bergeon generic arbors with the 3D printed winder barrels.  I've been able to wind several mainsprings without too much trouble.  For me, this approach is much easier than with the staple and winder base.

I got the Bergeon #4, 6, and 8 right hand arbors.  That gave me arbors of 2.5, 3.0 and 3.5 mm with the largest diameter end washer available for the arbor size (Mainspring winder sizes).  The right hand arbors were less expensive than the left hand, for some reason and, of course, are far cheaper than getting the full Bergeon mainspring winder and arbor combos.  I modified the pushers to be able to accept up to the 3.5mm arbor.  For when I need a left hand arbor, I wind up the mainspring with the right hand arbor and then transfer it into a modified winder body, that I call a "reverser".  I made a base to hold the reverser and its pusher while I push the mainspring into the reverser.  These parts are shown on the left side of the photo.

Maybe eventually, I will get the left hand winder and arbor combos, but for now, this is workable for me.

Edited July 17, 2023 by gpraceman

[LittleWatchShop]

8 hours ago, gpraceman said:

I struggled with the staples, trying to hook them to the mainsprings.  So, I thought that I would test out a hybrid approach.  Using the Bergeon generic arbors with the 3D printed winder barrels.  I've been able to wind several mainsprings without too much trouble.  For me, this approach is much easier than with the staple and winder base.

I got the Bergeon #4, 6, and 8 right hand arbors.  That gave me arbors of 2.5, 3.0 and 3.5 mm with the largest diameter end washer available for the arbor size (Mainspring winder sizes).  The right hand arbors were less expensive than the left hand, for some reason and, of course, are far cheaper than getting the full Bergeon mainspring winder and arbor combos.  I modified the pushers to be able to accept up to the 3.5mm arbor.  For when I need a left hand arbor, I wind up the mainspring with the right hand arbor and then transfer it into a modified winder body, that I call a "reverser".  I made a base to hold the reverser and its pusher while I push the mainspring into the reverser.  These parts are shown on the left side of the photo.

Maybe eventually, I will get the left hand winder and arbor combos, but for now, this is workable for me.

Makes sense.  I have repaired a couple if K&D winding arbors.  I simply drill out the old "catch" pin, or drill a new hole and tap in a new pin.  I have even had to make a new arbor from scratch by pressing the old arbor out of the Al knurled cylinder and turning a new one and pressing it in.  Of course, you need a lathe and a little bit of skill and patience.  Using the same method, you could make arbors for the 3D winders.  The paper clip thing seems a bit wonky.

Edited July 17, 2023 by LittleWatchShop

[Zero]

23 hours ago, gpraceman said:

I struggled with the staples, trying to hook them to the mainsprings.  So, I thought that I would test out a hybrid approach.  Using the Bergeon generic arbors with the 3D printed winder barrels.  I've been able to wind several mainsprings without too much trouble.  For me, this approach is much easier than with the staple and winder base.

I got the Bergeon #4, 6, and 8 right hand arbors.  That gave me arbors of 2.5, 3.0 and 3.5 mm with the largest diameter end washer available for the arbor size (Mainspring winder sizes).  The right hand arbors were less expensive than the left hand, for some reason and, of course, are far cheaper than getting the full Bergeon mainspring winder and arbor combos.  I modified the pushers to be able to accept up to the 3.5mm arbor.  For when I need a left hand arbor, I wind up the mainspring with the right hand arbor and then transfer it into a modified winder body, that I call a "reverser".  I made a base to hold the reverser and its pusher while I push the mainspring into the reverser.  These parts are shown on the left side of the photo.

Maybe eventually, I will get the left hand winder and arbor combos, but for now, this is workable for me.

Good that you found a solution that works for you. Not necessarily agree with it, but I'm glad you found it useful. Maybe eventually can include notes/pics/videos on using this style in the project README.

You probably will need to share a video showing your struggles hooking the mainspring. Not bragging, but I think I usually do it with one eye closed

I do have the right hand winder arbors #7, and successfully used it with the RS winder just like you did. I have also tried using pin vises + the original mainspring arbor, but they tend to badly scratch the original arbor if you made a slight mistake.

However, I am very comfortable using the staples pin and have used it successfully across all the different sizes. It definitely is not perfect, and draws criticism from those who have never used it. But it is cheap, accessible, replaceable, and it works.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Zero

[gpraceman]

10 hours ago, Zero said:

Good that you found a solution that works for you. Not necessarily agree with it, but I'm glad you found it useful. Maybe eventually can include notes/pics/videos on using this style in the project README.

You probably will need to share a video showing your struggles hooking the mainspring. Not bragging, but I think I usually do it with one eye closed

I do have the right hand winder arbors #7, and successfully used it with the RS winder just like you did. I have also tried using pin vises + the original mainspring arbor, but they tend to badly scratch the original arbor if you made a slight mistake.

However, I am very comfortable using the staples pin and have used it successfully across all the different sizes. It definitely is not perfect, and draws criticism from those who have never used it. But it is cheap, accessible, replaceable, and it works.

Not sure what there is to agree/disagree with.  If this is easier for me to use, then that's what I'll go with.  If the staple method works well for others, then that's great for them.  What I appreciate about this project is that it is adaptable and allows a better option than hand winding and, of course, is a far cheaper option than traditional mainspring winders.  I think with a modest change to the pushers to accommodate the size arbor typically used for the barrel size, this project would have the flexibility to be used in either fashion, as well as adding the means to flip the mainspring over to get the required orientation of the wind.

On that latter point, I have thought about simply making 3D printed flat washers with appropriate inner diameters and maybe some holder to aid in placing the mainspring into the washer.  Then push the mainspring into the barrel in the same manner that one would do with a new mainspring.  Not sure if PLA would be a good candidate for making thin washers to do that.  My "reversers" work, but I do have to be careful about the orientation of the slots for the pusher legs so as not to have the mainspring end stick out of one.  A simpler means to flip a mainspring would be nicer.

[Zero]

1 hour ago, gpraceman said:

I think with a modest change to the pushers to accommodate the size arbor typically used for the barrel size, this project would have the flexibility to be used in either fashion, as well as adding the means to flip the mainspring over to get the required orientation of the wind.

Will definitely consider adding more arbor sizes in the generate script to accommodate this style in the future, especially if more folk come along requesting for this.

The reversing part is the main issue with this approach. You need to "overwind" the mainspring to prep it for reversing, meaning you need to force it into a smaller sized winder than you usually would. E.g. for a 10mm mainspring you will have to wind it into a 9mm winder, put it into a 9.5mm washer, then push it into the 10mm barrel. Under normal circumstances, you will just need to use a 9.5mm winder and push it into a 10mm barrel. This is OK for modern mainsprings, but for vintage mainsprings it may not be a good idea.

BTW, to reverse the mainspring you can actually just push it into another winder that is one size larger. The plunger teeth will stop it from pushing it in too deep as long as the teeth holes are not aligned. After that you can proceed to push it into the actual barrel.

1 hour ago, gpraceman said:

Not sure what there is to agree/disagree with.  If this is easier for me to use, then that's what I'll go with.  If the staple method works well for others, then that's great for them.

I just disagreed that hooking the mainspring is a struggle/difficult, because to me it is a relatively easy task. This is in view of other tasks in watchmaking involving extremely tiny parts that are far more difficult to deal with, like jewel clips and hairspring repair. But hey who am I to judge your struggles, like you said if it works then that's great.

[gpraceman]

5 minutes ago, Zero said:

The reversing part is the main issue with this approach. You need to "overwind" the mainspring to prep it for reversing, meaning you need to force it into a smaller sized winder than you usually would. E.g. for a 10mm mainspring you will have to wind it into a 9mm winder, put it into a 9.5mm washer, then push it into the 10mm barrel. Under normal circumstances, you will just need to use a 9.5mm winder and push it into a 10mm barrel. This is OK for modern mainsprings, but for vintage mainsprings it may not be a good idea.

Not necessarily so.  I was able to push a spring into the same sized "reverser", without issue.  Using the bowl setter to get the mainspring to stick out a bit from the winder barrel, then fit it into the barrel of the same sized reverser and push it in.  Using a same sized winder would work as well.  I just was trying to minimize the opening where the end of the mainspring could try to stick out.  It's probably a non-issue as long as one is diligent about lining up the wedge shaped openings of the two winders together, before pushing the spring in.

What might be a snap for some can be rather fiddly for others, so having the flexibility of doing it either way is good.

[Yxoc]

I have just printed two  9.5mm versions of this at my local library (well actually I just sent them the .stl files and they notified me when they were printed). One in PLA and one in onyx (carbon fibre infused plastic I’m told). They came out ok, the print quality doesn’t look as nice as what AndyShap is selling on eBay and they required a bit of sanding here and there to fit together. That was no problem but the four holes for the staple are a bit imprecise. I’ve been practicing with a now quite mangled NH35 spring and my process has been to place the ‘hook’ of the staple in the spring ‘eye’ and then lower the spring into the arbor, letting the shank of the staple drop into the best spaced hole. Getting the tail of the spring to line up with the winding aperture is fiddly due to the thick barrel wall. I’m finding that it then winds ok but the extra force required to drag the bridle into the barrel is often mangling the staple. A thicker staple wouldn’t fit into the spring eye I don’t believe. For the times that it works, the subsequent depth seeing using the setting bowl makes placement into the mainspring barrel very easy. I’d be very interested in others tips, techniques and experiences. The idea is a credit to the creator and I really hope I can get it to work consistently. I find the price of bergeon tools to be simply insulting. Use of the bergeon arbors with the printed barrels seems like a reasonable compromise if I can’t get the staple to work. 

[nrm]

This is a fantastic project that I'll absolutely be trying out myself when the time comes!

For those of you who don't have your own 3D printer or who don't know how to gain access to one; please remember to check your local Library. Especially in larger cities, libraries (at least in North America) have been adding 3D Printing and Maker spaces to their services in an attempt to diversify and attract new members. Usually for just the cost of membership and materials you can get whatever you need printed  Plus you get the bonus of having that library card that you always said you should get one day?

[AndyShap]

Regarding a library print... Just be realistic as to what you will get. As Yxoc mentioned, the library is not going to do a careful, fantastic job for you. They'll print the part in "good" mode. This means that you may have to do a bunch of sanding and filing to get it to work.  And that means that the winders may not work as intended.  If you can convince the library to print in extra fine mode, you should be OK (but I don't think they will do it). You can always try and ask a friend to print for you, or (shameful plug!) you can order from me on eBay  (https://www.ebay.com/itm/125428348675). The arbor hook holes can be drilled  to the correct size with a .1mm drill.

[nrm]

7 hours ago, AndyShap said:

the library is not going to do a careful, fantastic job for you. They'll print the part in "good" mode.

I'm sorry that this is the state of your local library! I assure you it is not like this everywhere. I'm sure that we can agree, however, that regardless of wether one is employing a friend, a merchant, or any other resource; it is always worth some small effort to research and choose the option that is best for yourself. The opinions of strangers on the Internet are all well and good, but that's merely a starting point!  

[AndyShap]

I'm not arguing what you are saying. Unfortunately for me, I started my 3D printing career by sending prints to the local library, and they printed what would be considered OK prints.  My post was really meant to advise people that if they have trouble using the winders, it MAY be because of the quality of the prints.

[Zero]

On 9/30/2023 at 5:08 AM, Yxoc said:

That was no problem but the four holes for the staple are a bit imprecise. I’ve been practicing with a now quite mangled NH35 spring and my process has been to place the ‘hook’ of the staple in the spring ‘eye’ and then lower the spring into the arbor, letting the shank of the staple drop into the best spaced hole. Getting the tail of the spring to line up with the winding aperture is fiddly due to the thick barrel wall. I’m finding that it then winds ok but the extra force required to drag the bridle into the barrel is often mangling the staple. A thicker staple wouldn’t fit into the spring eye I don’t believe.

Best tip is to wind it once, and do it right the first time. You should try pushing the tail end in, instead of winding it in which puts a lot of stress on the system. Also, there is a guide here to help with arbour placement: https://github.com/vishnu350/rs-mainspring-winder/wiki/Attaching-the-Arbour-Hook-to-the-Mainspring

The staple is supposed to get mangled over time as it is is a softer metal than the mainspring. Tougher/harder materials could create micro pitting on the mainspring eye which may decrease its overall strength, this also applies to Bergeon winders which are well built. However, modern mainsprings are made out of pretty tough stuff, so I wouldn't worry too much. If it is a vintage mainspring though, then maybe the RS winder is better for you.

Also, print quality is important. I would look into tweaking the print settings or requesting the technician to re-calibrate the printer for you, so you can use a thicker staple.
 

On 9/30/2023 at 5:08 AM, Yxoc said:

For the times that it works, the subsequent depth seeing using the setting bowl makes placement into the mainspring barrel very easy.

The window view when extruding is definitely satisfying, and it also tells you if you are about to mess up.
 

[Yxoc]

49 minutes ago, Zero said:

Best tip is to wind it once, and do it right the first time. You should try pushing the tail end in, instead of winding it in which puts a lot of stress on the system. Also, there is a guide here to help with arbour placement: https://github.com/vishnu350/rs-mainspring-winder/wiki/Attaching-the-Arbour-Hook-to-the-Mainspring

The staple is supposed to get mangled over time as it is is a softer metal than the mainspring. Tougher/harder materials could create micro pitting on the mainspring eye which may decrease its overall strength, this also applies to Bergeon winders which are well built. However, modern mainsprings are made out of pretty tough stuff, so I wouldn't worry too much. If it is a vintage mainspring though, then maybe the RS winder is better for you.

Also, print quality is important. I would look into tweaking the print settings or requesting the technician to re-calibrate the printer for you, so you can use a thicker staple.
 

The window view when extruding is definitely satisfying, and it also tells you if you are about to mess up.
 

Thanks for your reply Zero,

The mainspring I am using is effectively a sacrificial item whose sole purpose in life is to help me get the technique right before trying on something that matters. I think you are right about pushing the bridle in rather than winding it in.
Regarding the gauge of the staple, it is limited by the eye hole in the mainspring, not the printed holes in the winder base. I will try and upload some photos of the print quality, I think it’s good enough and probably not the cause of my problems but I’ll be interested in any feedback you would care to give. 
 

i have read the wiki pages a couple of times, I am definitely using the approved latching method, inserting the staple hook from outside in. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Yxoc

[Yxoc]

Ok, pictures of the print quality and some explanatory notes regarding my process. Firstly the two complete 9.5mm sets:

 

A close up of the two bases showing the questionable staple hole print:

Here is the staple I’m using that is small enough to fit in the spring eye:

First I insert into the spring:

Then I lower onto the base, this hole is too far out,I reset the staple shank into a closer hole before I winded:

[AndyShap]

As I mentioned before... These winders are not really printed very well.  And I think this is your problem. The arbor hook holes are really non-existent in your winder base.  Lastly, your staples are HUGE. Here is a picture showing the winders I produce and a sample staple. My staples are thinner and round. WHat country are you in? My staples are standard staples for USA.

[Yxoc]

6 hours ago, AndyShap said:

As I mentioned before... These winders are not really printed very well.  And I think this is your problem. The arbor hook holes are really non-existent in your winder base.  Lastly, your staples are HUGE. Here is a picture showing the winders I produce and a sample staple. My staples are thinner and round. WHat country are you in? My staples are standard staples for USA.

You’re probably right about the print quality, the poorly defined staple holes might not be holding the shank of the staple very firmly. 
 

Regarding the staple size, I feel like you may be getting some scale shock, here is one of the staples laid on the smallest size of the cutting jig:

I’m in Australia, most staples I see here seem to be a rounded rectangle cross section.

 

[Zero]

On 10/2/2023 at 9:44 AM, Yxoc said:

You’re probably right about the print quality, the poorly defined staple holes might not be holding the shank of the staple very firmly. 

Regarding the staple size, I feel like you may be getting some scale shock, here is one of the staples laid on the smallest size of the cutting jig:

I’m in Australia, most staples I see here seem to be a rounded rectangle cross section.

The poorly defined holes is probably causing the staple to warp, but it should kinda stay in that shape the next time you wind.

Also, you can try pushing in the tail when finished winding, to see how that impacts your staple's lifespan.

Either way, nice pictures. You seem to be doing OK

[Kalanag]

On 10/2/2023 at 2:24 AM, Yxoc said:

Ok, pictures of the print quality and some explanatory notes regarding my process. Firstly the two complete 9.5mm sets:

 

A close up of the two bases showing the questionable staple hole print:

Here is the staple I’m using that is small enough to fit in the spring eye:

First I insert into the spring:

Then I lower onto the base, this hole is too far out,I reset the staple shank into a closer hole before I winded:

I see lots of white particles on the mainspring!? Are these shavings from the 3D printed winder?

[Zero]

On 10/4/2023 at 5:17 PM, Kalanag said:

I see lots of white particles on the mainspring!? Are these shavings from the 3D printed winder?

He clearly said it was a test mainspring and thus he probably does not care about dirt or skin flakes getting on the mainspring.

The overall forces exhibited by these winders are too minuscule to shear or "shave"(?) PLA/ABS/Nylon. All of them are pretty tough plastic, though I cant comment on every cheap filament out there.

Frictional forces are almost non-existent, and definitely will not cause "shavings" into little white balls. The dynamic frictional coefficient of steel vs plastic is very low (u = ~0.3), even lower than steel vs steel (u = ~0.5). Plastics such as Teflon/PTFE are even lower (u = ~0.05) and are used in lubricants. Based on scaling frictional forces alone, you are probably more likely to create little shavings of steel vs steel with your Bergeon winder, than you would on the steel vs plastic winder. Does anyone see little metal ball "shavings" after using the Bergeon winder? No.

Please do not confuse shearing/"shavings" from an unfinished/unpolished print with loose ends. It is on you to clean up after yourself and get rid of the plastic hairs etc. Eg. you can polish ABS using Acetone vapor bath. Same applies for metal parts you work on with a lathe, you need to clean it up.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Zero

[AndyShap]

Zero is being very polite (but accurate!). The print quality of Yxoc's winders is TERRIBLE! There is no way to expect these to work properly at all.  These winders are designed to really high tolerances and you lose all that with this print quality.  You can see all the little pieces hanging off of the winders before they were ever used to try winding a mainspring.  Everything Zero said is true. You MUST start with a high quality print if you expect high quality results. Yxoc, I would go back to the library and ask if they would be willing to reprint everything  in Super Quality (.12mm layer height).  They may not, as the entire starter kit (as pictured in my picture) takes about 4.5 hours to print. The Library may not be willing to spend that long on one job.  If you can't find a friend to print these for you. Send me a message. I'll try and work something out with you.