Seiko NH 35/6 lubrication of brand new movement

[Tudor]

Hi guys.

I'm sure a few of you build up Seikos in various guises. I'm considering this myself, as a side-gig. But, my question is: would I need to tear down the new movements and clean them prior to lubrication, or will they come "dry" and I can just apply the lubrication? (or, I suppose, they could come lubricated, ready to go, but I'd have no idea how long ago and the oil condition in that case).

Anyone know?

[Ishima]

I would assume a new movement to come properly lubricated from the manufacturer.
Also modern lubricants aren't prone to significant change from being at rest and uncontaminated by dirt or moisture.

That being said if you have a timegrapher, you can use that for peace of mind, if you get a decent amplitude when you wind it up and run it, that strongly indicates a that the oils are good and the watch is properly lubricated. Though, with seiko movements realise they're well known for running at slightly lower amplitudes, and also note that you may need to search for the movements 'lift angle' and put that into your timegraphers settings to get an accurate reading. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Ishima

[jdm]

23 minutes ago, Tudor said:

But, my question is: would I need to tear down the new movements and clean them prior to lubrication, or will they come "dry" and I can just apply the lubrication? (or, I suppose, they could come lubricated, ready to go, but I'd have no idea how long ago and the oil condition in that case).

You can't know for sure. Seiko has multiple factories, and apparently some in China are now selling autonomously outside SII official channels just to add uncertainty.

Even before that Seiko uses largely automated assembly of entry level movements, and you can see reports of some that come with too much oil, and some with too little. I have found for example that the teeth on the auto winding wheel are always dry, while the technical guide says they have to be greased.

So while you can be reassured that the mov.t will be almost always fine even on the timegrapher, and the balance lubrication OK, you can't know about the rest unless you inspect it yourself.

[Tudor]

I would certainly inspect it, so I guess that would tell the tale.

I just wanted to avoid a full service on a new movement to keep costs under control. Otherwise it ends up being a $500 watch really quickly and there are a lot of other options in that price range. I'm hoping to retail under $400, while at the same time not selling "junk". if I can't do it right, I won't do it.

[jdm]

1 minute ago, Tudor said:

I'm hoping to retail under $400, while at the same time not selling "junk". if I can't do it right, I won't do it.

You will need an hell of a product, and grand slam marketing to sell an NH35 watch above USD300 when Chinese do pretty decent ones for $60. The price you have in mind is comparable to ever popular Seiko turtles, samurais and mini cocktail times. If you want to get a realistic idea about which "one man" brands watches do sell, and for how much, have a good look at the crowfunding platforms.

[Tudor]

Yes I understand that, and appreciate you looking out for my interests. 
 

It won’t be for everyone, and my target audience is not the general public. Plus I don’t want to end up with hundreds of orders I am unable to fill. Although a “good” problem, it’s still a problem. 
 

Entering into something like this without clear goals and parameters will cause failure. 
 

If I did the same watch with a 2892-A2 it would be $1000 with no upside for the end user. Why anyone builds a new design around the 2824 I just don’t know. 

[jdm]

13 hours ago, Tudor said:

It won’t be for everyone, and my target audience is not the general public.

Selling into a niche is generally a good proposition, still one needs many things in his favor to turn investment and work into profit. I did that for a time (not watches) and it was great until the wind blew my way, but had to be quck to furl sails when conditions changed. 

Quote

If I did the same watch with a 2892-A2 it would be $1000 with no upside for the end user.

Again I am not so sure that could work. Few minor Swiss brands already sell 2892 below 1K and with their operating costs I don't think they have much margin. But they have branding, and that matters. 

Quote

Why anyone builds a new design around the 2824 I just don’t know. 

Because every watch blog always highlights the qualities and supposed "great value" of that caliber, buyers, (a very omoegeneous class in this market segment) buy that story big time, and the Swiss makers follow suit making not less than 3 quality copies of the ETA. Not to mention the Chinese copies. Naturally, OEM, microbrands and crowfunded projects leverage all that to lessen risks and costs. 

[Tudor]

Yeah, even the first gen Pelagos from Tudor (which I prefer) used a 2824. Then they "improved" it with an unreliable "in house" movement, that's significantly thicker (but has longer power reserve! Yeah!). Oh, and they junked up the dial with two more lines of text.

[Waggy]

I think you have to pick your market - there are 2 kinds of buyers for a given product, those that go with the crowd and those that want to stand out from the crowd. Take iPhone users, they all want iPhones because psychologically they think that if so many people use it, then it must be a good product and they will fit in with the crowd. As a side note, this is actually a fallacious argument called the "Appeal to Popularity Fallacy" but it explains why smart people sometimes buy questionable products.... thinking shell suits here. There are also buyers who want to stand out from the crowd and have something unique and not be sheeple. Interestingly, the same person can be a go with the crowd for one product or issue and a stand out from the crowd in another.

I would feel fairly confident in stating that most people who would be interested in a mechanical watch (of any brand or price) instead of a smart/quartz watch (for example) are the stand out from the crowd group when it comes to watches. This is good news, because if this was not the case a one-man-band could never compete with those mass produced brands on popular watches. Therefore, we must appeal to the people who want to be individuals when it comes to watches, and what they want is something the next person doesn't have. There is a lot of value in this uniqueness appeal.... just compare a Rolex and a Seiko 5. Yes, the Rolex does use better parts etc... but we all know that the cost to produce a Rolex is not realy x100 more than the cost to manufacture/brand/distribute/sell the Seiko. Hence, the difference (x99??) between these two costs is the perceived value. Therefore, you need to price on your value not by a mark-up on your costs. There are lots of examples of technically horrible watches with cheap movements and poor quality control out there that sell for $$$, simply because they have a uniqueness about them.

So if I were to start my own watch side line I would look to make a quality product (for my personal morality/pride, not because it will result in more sales) that is unique, ie something that looks/functions uniquely and/or unique because not everyone can have one (ie small supply)... for example, just look at Rolex's gambit to choke supply to drive up demand! If you can get this right then you can charge many multiples over the cost of the components. A one-man-band has this uniqueness in spades... Which watch would you want to buy:

• I am a single watch maker producing bespoke watches, I only produce 10 watches a year, and for the exclusive price of $20,000 you can have one of them.....
• I work in a team of watch makers making 15,000 watches a year, and for the value price of $200 you can have one...

In either case above the components could be <$200, but would this be a factor in the buyers purchasing decision, judging by the sales of those expensive low quality watches we already spoke about I would propose that (counterintuitively) the average buyer wouldn't use this as part of their purchase decision. I could even envision the situation where you would struggle to sell 100 watches with a production cost of $200 at $400, but would have a waiting list as long as your arm if you sold the exact same watch at $20,000.

Sorry...rant over

PS: Don't mean to single out Rolex, they make great watches and good on them if they can make and sell quality watches. They just made a convenient example in the above discussion.

Sorry to have wandered off topic... I have made a few personal watches based on Seiko NH35 movements and I assumed (maybe incorrectly??) that they came "ready to go", I would be keen to see what the consensus of this group is on this subject.