Working on a Longines cal. 508

[Thesecondtallestman]

I started servicing my first ever automatic watch yesterday, and I've ended up having a few questions about it. Can someone tell me if winding through the crown is supposed to engage the automatic wheels? It's adding a lot of resistance to the manual wind as well, and it doesn't really feel right. The watch had a very hard manual wind from before, and I replaced the parts in the same way as I found them. This led me to think that something might have been seated improperly to begin with. Otherwise the automatic works seems to be working ok, winding in both directions. It's a bit slow on the wind, but my lacking experience leaves me unsure if this normal or not.

 

[Nucejoe]

  There are calibers equiped with Independent manual wind. According to Dr ranfft longines 508 is a regular selfwinder.

 

[Nucejoe]

3 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

  There are calibers equiped with Independent manual wind. According to Dr ranfft longines 508 is a regular selfwinder.

 

So, you should check all arbours, pivots and gears in winder module, clean&clean&clean  and apply epilame. Maker sure ratchet wheel reduction wheel meshes with ratchet wheel.

[jdm]

48 minutes ago, Thesecondtallestman said:

Can someone tell me if winding through the crown is supposed to engage the automatic wheels? It's adding a lot of resistance to the manual wind as well, and it doesn't really feel right. 

Is the rotor turning when you wind manually? If so, on with the watch being horizontal, or even when vertical? 

Neither should happen. The reversing wheels are not working as they should, these can be trick to lubricate properly. Have a search about the matter with the box top right. 

[Thesecondtallestman]

35 minutes ago, jdm said:

Is the rotor turning when you wind manually? If so, on with the watch being horizontal, or even when vertical? 

The rotor is still while I'm winding, but the wheels are spinning. The entire automatic module seems different from what I've usually seen in videos and such. The wheels are mounted on top of the wheel train bridge, and not integrated in the module. The wheels are also somewhat strange, with two wheels on top of each other. When winding with the crown and stem, only the bottom wheel is turning, but when the oscillating weight is turning, both top and bottom wheel is moving.

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Thesecondtallestman

[jdm]

Just now, Thesecondtallestman said:

The rotor is still while I'm winding, but the wheels are spinning.

That is how it should work.

Just now, Thesecondtallestman said:

The entire automatic module seems different from what I've usually seen in videos and such. The wheels are mounted on top of the wheel train bridge, and not integrated in module. The wheels are also somewhat strange, with two wheels on top of each other.

A design difference but the reversing wheels principle is the same.

Just now, Thesecondtallestman said:

When winding with the crown and stem, only the bottom wheel is turning,

Because the one- way mechanism of the other correctly prevents it to do so.

Just now, Thesecondtallestman said:

but when oscillating weight is turning, both top and bottom wheel is moving.

Because they both permanenty mesh to the pinion on the rotor weight in order to provide bidirectional winding.

[Nucejoe]

The two wheels on top of each other are your reversers, big so spins with low speed.

Hard manual wind is often due to poor clean and lube, otherwise a wear, damage or fault in winder module. 

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Nucejoe
did you get a techsheet for this

[JohnR725]

a problem when servicing older watches with complications such as automatic mechanisms is the lack of technical information. One of the places you can have problems with automatic watches is the reverser wheels require special lubrication and the special lubrication depends upon the type of reverser wheels. simplistically someplace between the manual winding and the automatic winding is something that allows the two components to run independent of each other. They are supposed to slip or function usually with lubrication and if they don't you can get interesting problems.

 

 

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Longines_508

[Thesecondtallestman]

26 minutes ago, jdm said:

That is how it should work.

A design difference but the reversing wheels principle is the same.

Because the one- way mechanism of the other correctly prevents it to do so.

Because they both permanenty mesh to the pinion on the rotor weight in order to provide bidirectional winding.

So everything is working as it should then? Barring the hard wind that is. It's not very hard, but compared to manual watches it seemed to require extra force, and the sound of the click is muffled by the spinning of the automatic wheels.

 

22 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

the reverser wheels require special lubrication and the special lubrication depends upon the type of reverser wheels.

Seeing that the wheels are placed on top of eachother, I can only lubricate the pivots, for which I used 9010, simply because I recalled Mark having used that in one of his videos.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Thesecondtallestman said:

Seeing that the wheels are placed on top of each other, I can only lubricate the pivots, for which I used 9010, simply because I recalled Mark having used that in one of his videos.

I have a link

https://www.esslinger.com/eta-lubeta-v105-and-v106-lubricants-for-reversing-wheels-and-ball-bearings/

 

[jdm]

11 hours ago, Thesecondtallestman said:

So everything is working as it should then?

I think so.

11 hours ago, Thesecondtallestman said:

Barring the hard wind that is. It's not very hard, but compared to manual watches it seemed to require extra force, and the sound of the click is muffled by the spinning of the automatic wheels.

Easy to test, remove the auto works and try if it becomes any easier. You can also count how much de-multiplication there is from crown to barrel by counting respective turns, maybe it is not a very favorable ratio.

11 hours ago, Thesecondtallestman said:

Seeing that the wheels are placed on top of eachother, I can only lubricate the pivots, for which I used 9010, simply because I recalled Mark having used that in one of his videos.

The wheels are lubricated internally by dropping them in the solution. I do not recommend tobuy at the crazy prices asked, but simply make you own as described in the many topics on the subject. Before dwelling in another debate consider that in your case the auto works appear to pass the first test of not spinning the rotor when hand winding, the second test is to see if the weight alone of the rotor winds over the spring with the mov.t vertical at all states of winding except perhaps "very fully", and third try on the automatic or human arm.

[Nucejoe]

13 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

  There are calibers equiped with Independent manual wind. According to Dr ranfft longines 508 is a regular selfwinder.

 

With the exception " independent manual wind" , module gears in all auto winders engage as you wind manual, said gears turning doesn't mean you have spotted an issue, thats how they all are and suppose to be and yes that do put extra load on winding manually.

The issue you may have is, the said load might be abnormally excessive, in which case you are highly likely to have another issue with the winder that you have not yet spotted, and that is the question of, the winder efficiency. A normal day's wind on wrist is your actual power reserve, so measuring the reserved power during a normal day shows how efficient your winder is, which is not expected to be much in your watch. The least would be, rotor winding whilst falling under own weight.

If manual wind is indeed hard( a matter of personal judgement) then all indicators point to a fault in the module and mostly poor clean and wrong lubing.

An easy test would be to remove the winder then if still hard to wind manually, you watch has an issue outside the module as well. 

This is a high grade movement and expected to live up to its name, Record&Longines.

Regards