turns - Lorch lathe and Horia Steiner related

[JGrainger]

Hello,

I was looking for something the other day and found my (unused) small set of unbranded turns. I use a 8mm Lorch lathe with minimal accessories - usually turning in-one with the aid of a microscope and graticule to measure and cut. Despite this, I have liked the idea of the turns since first seeing the historic timekeepers website quite a long time ago. Eventually I fancy adding the option to my tool repertoir but am tempted to do it sooner than later. I've thought of a few options but would like to check some details and get some opinions. I also use a Jacot tool and sometimes a shellac chuck.

 

I don't really fancy using the small turns - compared to a lathe-sized set, but it would also mean making some bits.. and shiny new (or new to me) parts are always appealing..

 

It crossed my mind that I could get a 2nd tailstock for my Lorch lathe, then (for convenience) purchase a Horia "slide device" - dovetailed offsettable dead centre with pulley, to go in one of the tailstocks. The lorch tailstock takes 7mm accessories.. Does anyone know if the Horia accessory will fit a 7mm tailstock hole?

 

I could also just save up for the basic turns, from Horia - bed, 2 dead centre headstock / tailstock, the "slide device", tool rest, and make / use a couple of other fittings such as some dead centres, a mounting foot.. except that's more than a casual sum of money.. There don't seem many 2nd hand.

 

Will the Horia accessory fit my Lorch Geneva type lathe, and is there anything I'm failing to think of?

 

Thank you,

[nickelsilver]

I'll check tomorrow on my Steiner (now Horia) turns, but I think they're 8mm. Lorch made full turns setups too, I think I saw a swiss auction for a full setup a few days ago that was reasonably priced- will check on that too.

I learned on lathes, finishing things like staffs in the turns in school. You can finish staffs in collets if you have killer collets and a good lathe, but the beauty of turns is you can rough out the lengths spot on and diameters plus a couple hundredths in the lathe, harden temper, then finish in the turns and be perfect.

I have both, and the little 1.6mm long staff I have at the moment will finish in the turns. My collets are good but not thatgood.

[JGrainger]

Thank you,

If your Steiner turns are 8mm, it may still be possible to turn a Slide Device to 7mm but it would seem a shame to modify one.

I have been thinking since posting earlier, about how to adapt my current setup, and what parts I would need to buy in order to produce some components which can be used with standard Horia parts (such as the point disks and lanterns) so that it would be professional in use rather than a bodge job.

 

Finishing a 1.6mm staff in the turns seems quite impressive.

[Watcher]

Horia have a 7mm drawbar with many collets  ($$$) that fiits the Lorch 6mm tailstock. See below.

[nickelsilver]

Checked my old Steiner, they used 8.8mm of all sizes. Also on their Jacot tools. They do have a "slide device" mounted on a B-8 arbor, which should fit your Lorch. With that, the rest of the accessories can be made up pretty easily.

 

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/WatchmakersLathe/Accessories/Various-apparatus/Eccentric-slide-device.html

 

In case you're interested, here's the link to the turns up on a Swiss auction site. I doubt they sell outside the country, but it's a nice set and seems quite complete, if nothing else a bit of a reference on what's out there. This is a Wolf Jahn set.

 

https://www.ricardo.ch/fr/a/uhrmacher-miniaturdrehbank-mit-zubehoer-1112889100/

[JGrainger]

Thank you for taking the time to check, and for linking to the Swiss auction site.

 

I've given this some thought, finding an ordinary tailstock, and the tailstock shaped to fit a mounting foot on a popular auction site. Given the difference in cost (and one seller not getting back to me so far) I've decided to buy a 2nd regular tailstock for now. The Wolf Jahn turns has both types - I can machine a separate foot to hold the lathe bed to the mounting foot.

It's a shame Steiner/ Horia use 8.8mm. I will aquire one of the Slide Devices and the various lanterns, and use them to produce some arbors for the 7mm tailstock of my Lorch.

[JGrainger]

On 4/18/2020 at 8:35 AM, Watcher said:

Horia have a 7mm drawbar with many collets  ($$$) that fiits the Lorch 6mm tailstock. See below.

Watcher, the collet tube and drawbar look pretty nifty. Which size are the collets?

[nickelsilver]

Watcher, the collet tube and drawbar look pretty nifty. Which size are the collets?

They are Schaublin P-4.5, 4.5mm body. They were used by various makers in jeweling tool sets and such.

[JGrainger]

Watcher, Thank you, I'll look out for some of those.

 

For anyone following this to find out any other information. I have also recently emailed Horia and they can produce the slide device in 7mm diameter (to fit the tailstock of my Lorch) - though I don't know what the cost would be.

[Watcher]

These are the P4.5 collets with  prices, other sizes on demand. A very helpful on-line firm since it was created by Jean-Claude Beuchat and Philippe Maître.

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/WatchmakersLathe/Chucks/Chucks-P4-5.html

[jdm]

On 4/17/2020 at 10:57 PM, nickelsilver said:

I learned on lathes, finishing things like staffs in the turns in school.

Is turns the same as a Jacot tool?

[nickelsilver]

Is turns the same as a Jacot tool?

Related but no. Turns, also called a dead center lathe, hold the part at its ends, usually in female centers at watch and clock sizes. The upside is guaranteed concentricity, and you can remove the part as often as you like to measure or test without risk of losing concentricity. The downside is it's a bit more fiddly, and trickier to use a cross slide if wanted, and measuring usually means taking the part out.

Turns can be pretty sophisticated, like the Horia/Steiner sets, but in essence they are the simplest form of lathe.

I'll snap some pics of one set up tomorrow.

[nickelsilver]

Here are some pics. It's not set up for turning at the moment, will get some more when it is.

You can see the "headstock" takes simple round centers (there are a bunch to choose from), and is adjustable to line it up with the tailstock. The rows of tailstock centers are a little different from conventional in that they are basically drums with female centers cut all around the periphery. They are marked, so one marked 20 will produce a 0.20 pivot (or slightly larger) when the graver, held parallel, hits the side of the drum. Some tailstock centers are discs to allow the pivot to peek through, resting on a shoulder, to work the end of the pivot. On the right are a burnishing drum for large pivots (like a Jacot), and a setup for drilling arbors that are held by their shoulder. This is really handy for repivoting arbors that are difficult or impossible to hold in a collet.

 

The parts will always be fitted with a driving dog, either the fish shaped spring clips (99.9% of the time), or with the clamp on dogs that look more like traditional machinist driving dogs. A finger on the headstock pulley engages the dog. The little discs above the dog box are small pulleys which clamp on the work, this was the first way of driving the work, with a bow directly driving the pulley.

 

Traditionally, and still in many schools that teach the use of the turns, power is by a handwheel mounted below or behind the turns. They can equally be powered by a motor like any lathe. I still use a handwheel, as I just like the total control it offers. You have to be accustomed to holding your graver in one hand though.

 

 

[Watcher]

Very impressive collection of very expensive hardware. Do you have all of these or are they clips from the Horia catalogue?

I should have mentioned for JGrainger that the 7 mm drawbar (my translation for 'broche' Horia translate as 'spindle') in my photos is the inner 7 mm dia. bar of the 8 mm Complete apparatus for drilling and fitting pivots.

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/WatchmakersLathe/Accessories/Various-apparatus/Apparatus-for-drilling-and-fitting-4.html

 

[nickelsilver]

Very impressive collection of very expensive hardware. Do you have all of these or are they clips from the Horia catalogue?
I should have mentioned for JGrainger that the 7 mm drawbar (my translation for 'broche' Horia translate as 'spindle') in my photos is the inner 7 mm dia. bar of the 8 mm Complete apparatus for drilling and fitting pivots.
https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/WatchmakersLathe/Accessories/Various-apparatus/Apparatus-for-drilling-and-fitting-4.html
 

That's my set, I got it about 20 years ago. The black painted sets are old, I guess late 40s to 50s. They switched to blue hammertone at some point.

[JGrainger]

I've been a bit busy this last few days with house jobs and some machining.. gradually making some tools and all that jazz.

Nickelsilver, that's quite an impressive setup.

I'm presently awaiting some information on a complete (just needing postage) price for a few of the lanterns / pivot discs - they're not exactly cheap so might finish up ordering the minimum this month then see about a couple of other useful sizes next month.

In order to give it a try, after roughing a staff out in-one, it seems like the obvious parts to start with are the smallest of the 2mm hollow centres , the 0.1mm point chuck (for the easier sizes of staff) and small lantern

In practice, when turning a staff from a 2mm blank in the turns, do you go through all of the point chucks or do you usually skip a few - for example, possibly go from 0.5mm, 0.3mm, 0.15m, 0.1mm?

 

Watcher, I'll probably acquire one of those collet holding spindles when finances allow.

[nickelsilver]

You can definitely skip sizes, but you want to use different sizes too; if you start too small you can lose your cone on the part.

[JGrainger]

Thank you