Balance jewels and end stones

[rduckwor]

I'm working on an Elgin 712 movement and was about to go to a scrapper movement for the main plate until I found this: (first picture).  An end stone with no visible means of support. No spring, no screwed setting ring, nothing holding it in until I ran it thru the cleaner and it fell out.  Upon further examination, I found this:  (picture two).  Lots of glue in the setting.  Now the movement I am working on has a KIFF spring over the end stone (picture three).  I checked the second scrapper in my pile and it too has no visible means of support for the balance end stone and I suspect that it too is glued into the setting.  Neither scrapper setting has cut-outs for a spring insertion.

 

Was this ever a common practice for manufacturers?  I know Elgin has some special glue for hairspring collets and studs, but jewels?

Thanks,

RMD

[saswatch88]

Sorry if i find the post a bit confusing but we are talking about the balance cap jewels, picture 1-2 is one movement and picture 3 is a different movement but same caliber Elgin 712? If all 3 pictures is of a balance end stone/cap jewel  then the only one that looks correct is picture 3. Elgin 712 movement does indeed have a shockspring on the balance. I have seen friction fit pivot jewels for the train which seems to be what this has after looking on ranfft but it would never be on the balance.  One thing I can say for sure is there will never be any kind of glue on any balance jewels with a shock spring, because that would defeat the whole “shock resistant” purpose. I would also say the same for non shock resistant movements.

[JohnR725]

Elgin had several styles of Springs to hold the jewels in place. I think what happens is watchmakers will lose them and shove in something else. Then you will note that these are not necessarily shock resistant jewels only Springs for holding them together.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Elgin_712

[rduckwor]

That's the one I was thinking of.  The "lyre" shaped spring.  I simply could not remember what it looked like when I was working on this movement.  That would certainly fit this setting WITHOUT the cut-out for the KIFF spring.

 

Yes, they weren't shock settings. I remember reading in an Elgin publication how they crowed about this spring and the reductions of "lost" screws for the people servicing their movements.

Thanks,

RMD

[rduckwor]

" Sorry if i find the post a bit confusing but we are talking about the balance cap jewels, picture 1-2 is one movement and picture 3 is a different movement but same caliber Elgin 712? If all 3 pictures is of a balance end stone/cap jewel  then the only one that looks correct is picture 3. "

 

Saswatch88:  the first two pictures are intended to show the setting for the cap stone and the glue I removed from said setting.

 

RMD

[saswatch88]

Hmm that’s weird never seen that before but after looking at a stock Elgin 712 it doesn’t have any other jewels which are held in by a spring except for the balance cap. If these springs have been used to keep jewels together then i would suspect other than the balance it would only be on the escape wheel since normally you dont see cap jewels on anything else, and cant see a spring being needed to hold pivot jewels in place. The Elgin 712 did come with a model that had cap jewels on the escape.

Edited January 15, 2020 by saswatch88

[rduckwor]

Yep.  The cap stones for the escape are set in screw-retained settings.

RMD