Beautiful Waltham Pocket Watch

[mcass]

A friend of mine showed me this today asking if I knew anything about. Other than it being gorgeous I had know ideas but thought it might be fun to research. I'd never seen one quite like it.

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[noirrac1j]

Looks like a pendant set. What size is it?

 

JC

[mcass]

18 I believe


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[noirrac1j]

I found some info. If the movement serial number matches the case, then this watch is a 15 jewel adjusted movement. Usually the numbers don't match because cases were sold separately from movements, but someone else may correct me if I am wrong on this.

 Can you open and show picture of the actual movement to confirm?

 

Movement Serial Number:	577173
Grade:	A.T. & Co.
Model:	1857
Estimated Production Date:	March 1873 - May 1873
Run Quantity:	760
Total Production:	69,248
Size:	18s
Jewels:	15j

[WileyDave]

5 hours ago, noirrac1j said:

Usually the numbers don't match because cases were sold separately from movements, but someone else may correct me if I am wrong on this.

No correction needed, cases were mass produced by several different co's, that it's real common to find one branded watch in different case, often there were re-cased after original plum wore out!

That is one BEAUTIFUL dial! Well used watch, can you get movement pic?

[oldhippy]

It would have been nice to see the movement.

[WileyDave]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 5:08 AM, WileyDave said:

No correction needed, cases were mass produced by several different co's, that it's real common to find one branded watch in different case, often there were re-cased after original plum wore out!

Correction is needed, on myself, case and movement numbers rarely match,  Original Noirrac1 assessment was on case number, (this is what happens if you don't read post and it's very early in am!!) if it matches movement, then it is spot on, really need to see movement s/n....thanks!

[noirrac1j]

Yes I figured that. Can you show the movement @mcass? Its a hunter case, so the back cover can be opened. If you go along the edge of the case, you should feel a spot where it can be [gently] pried open.

JC

[mcass]

I'll see if I can come up with one


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[digginstony]

As far as I know "Walthams" were movement manufacturers. It's highly unlikely the serial number will match the case unless made to special order, which I've never heard of.
I suppose a case manufacturer could produce a case with matching number, why I can't imagine.
Numbers on movements or even cases are more to do with "Accounting Purposes" than production dates, though granted, many run in sequence.
It's entirely possible that a manufacturer could use separate Accounting number's for different models.
Why do manufacturers even use serial numbers ? It's normally more to do with submitting some type of information to the relevant authority with regards to income tax returns.

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[digginstony]

Forgot to say. If the watch is size 18 it could be "Special " when I first looked I thought it to be a smaller ladies watch. Very interesting now

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[noirrac1j]

5 minutes ago, digginstony said:

Forgot to say. If the watch is size 18 it could be "Special " when I first looked I thought it to be a smaller ladies watch. Very interesting now

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Exactly. I thought it was a smaller watch too.

 

Joe

[mcass]

Just got these pics....


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[mcass]

5832218 is the number on the movement


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[noirrac1j]

That is a very beautiful movement. The watch is certainly a desirable one, and here is the info I found using the movement number:

As you can see, it is a size 16s.

Regards,

JC

Edited December 10, 2016 by noirrac1j

[mcass]

Great info. I know very little about pocket watches. Any idea how much a piece like this is worth? I haven't really been able to find anything to compare it to.


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[digginstony]

Great info. I know very little about pocket watches. Any idea how much a piece like this is worth? I haven't really been able to find anything to compare it to.


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If own about a dozen "Walthams " but nothing to compare with yours. The movement is of high quality but there are movements more sort after to the collector, such as the 23 jewel "Vanguard" and the 17 jewel "PS Bartlett" etc.
I'm no expert in anyway and don't pretend to be. I haven't collected for a long time but as to valuation, it's worth what somebody is prepared to pay for it. To me, the watch is unusual with particular reference to the dial and watch size but would of been far more interesting if it were 18 size.
Hopefully there are more knowledgeable guys on the forum that can assist. It's probably worth having it professionally looked at and valued.
Not to avoid the issue of value totally. I would guess the value to be £200 to £350 but a professional, cognizant of the present market place would be able to help much more.

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[WileyDave]

4 hours ago, mcass said:

Great info. I know very little about pocket watches. Any idea how much a piece like this is worth? I haven't really been able to find anything to compare it to.


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I did quick look on the bay for similar sold watch, prices vary greatly, overall condition is most important, the case is worn with brassing, dial is cracked, (but still beautiful) and you didn't mention if watch is working, also important in terms of value, add in number of movements mfg. (scarcity). On the good side the movement is beautifully damaskseened and the regulator looks to be pretty unique, Original pricing is on about page 16 in this link

https://books.google.com/books?id=8fQ3AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq="The+Perfected+American+Watch"&hl=en&ei=yxLwTIrtI4OB8gaY4K3DDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q&f=false

I'm not an expert but in current condition ~$75-$100 USD, that's based on sold similar watches and of course condition. You can search NAWCC website for more info. They won't discuss value on this site, FYI

Hope that helps.

Dave

[digginstony]

Get somebody to look at the watch. Preferably an Auctioneer. Don't recommend Ebay. Would say I've seen worn out basic Walthams sell on bay for the price WileyDave quoted.
I made the assumption the watch is working ?
If your friend is thinking of selling, a specialist auction would be a better place. If your friend is offered or only reaches $75 to $100. Tell your friend to KEEP IT !
My impression is that people will buy any old rubbish on the bay upto about £70. Then it becomes harder. But what do I know[emoji4]

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[digginstony]

I've just looked on ebay and found something similar. It's obviously a ladies watch. With diamond in centre of the case. Which is probably only a diamond chip of little value ? The case is gold plated.
The seller is asking £385. Doesn't mean he will get that price though !

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[WileyDave]

6 hours ago, digginstony said:

Get somebody to look at the watch. Preferably an Auctioneer. Don't recommend Ebay. Would say I've seen worn out basic Walthams sell on bay for the price WileyDave quoted.

Right you are digginstony, I used the bay as gauge for similar watches or how much I should pay for a particular watch, by no means does this make it a "worth" this much , I've always gone by worth, as how much someone is willing to pay for it! Most, (not all) sellers when it comes to pwatches inflate their prices, because they don't want to take the time to research or they really believe someone will pay asking price

Hoping Dave C member will chime in, I know he has more experience in these.

[digginstony]

Right you are digginstony, I used the bay as gauge for similar watches or how much I should pay for a particular watch, by no means does this make it a "worth" this much [emoji4], I've always gone by worth, as how much someone is willing to pay for it! Most, (not all) sellers when it comes to pwatches inflate their prices, because they don't want to take the time to research or they really believe someone will pay asking price

Hoping Dave C member will chime in, I know he has more experience in these.

I've never been successful at gauging prices! They vary so much at auction.
I've seen an empty size 16 case sell on the bay for £100 ! Then an identical case sell a few weeks later for £30.

Collectors may love this watch or think it feminine and for its size hate it. Who knows I don't.
When I was collecting I had a figure in mind and wouldn't be tempted to go above it.
As to the condition and being original. This would take close inspection and even then would only be a point of view, due to the nature of the trade.
It could of been re-cased or the dial added later from an earlier watch.


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[WileyDave]

3 hours ago, digginstony said:

When I was collecting I had a figure in mind and wouldn't be tempted to go above it.
As to the condition and being original. This would take close inspection and even then would only be a point of view, due to the nature of the trade.

That's what I do, keeps me out of trying to get something for less than it's really worth. But by doing the legwork and researching production numbers and what they've sold for, I can get better idea how much to pay. Because of the volume of American watch companies produced, there are tons of movements that just aren't worth the effort to collect, sure they are good to fiddle with and repair, but there were so many produced just not that valuable. (obviously higher jeweled watches >17 are more desirable and command higher prices) Unless you can really be sure that hands, dial, case and movement are all original, (to the watch), then it's a guesstimate at best. 

It's a tough thing to gauge from US to Euro/UK.