Having trouble with a 7009a movement

[davidrrd]

Hello everybody.

First time posting to this forum, but have been following and getting lots of infos for a moment now.

I am pretty new to watch service and repair and have been trying to work on some flea market findings, mostly Seiko's.

 

After a couple of tryouts on scrap movements (really in bad shape) I found one that after a cleaning and lubrication is running happily 7005. After that I got my wife's dad 7009 with a broken stem and broken feet on dial. Bought the parts, did the cleaning and put everything together....Looked fine.... BUT when servicing (dial down) it seems to run fine but when I change position -dial up, crown down etc- it slows drastically (have no timing machine but from the look of the balance wheel I can tell) till sometimes stop.

Tried to clean it again more thoroughly and even try another balance assembly from a 7005 and nothing works.

 

Anyone can point me to a possible reason or where should I look out? Any help is extremely appreciated

 

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[khunter]

It sounds like you have a problem with either the upper pivot and or balance jewel. Re-inspect the balance bridge and jewels, make sure nothing is between the main plate and bridge when assembled, even a tiny speck of debris can raise the bridge far enough to allow for too much end play (up/down movement). Also make sure the balance hole jewel is installed correctly and not perhaps upside down.

The most obvious problem could be a broken upper pivot, guess I should have mentioned that first.....

Edited January 26, 2018 by khunter

[jdm]

11 minutes ago, khunter said:

Also make sure the balance hole jewel is installed correctly and not perhaps upside down.

I think you mean end stone (cap jewel). 

[khunter]

Just now, jdm said:

I think you mean end stone (cap jewel). 

Nope, I meant the hole jewel. I'm not familiar with this caliber but in the pocket watches I have worked on if the hole jewel is inverted it will sit too high in the balance cock, allowing for too much end shake. I also assume even with an encabloc (sp) setup inverting the cap jewel would be almost impossible, but I could be mistaken there...

[khunter]

14 minutes ago, khunter said:

Nope, I meant the hole jewel. I'm not familiar with this caliber but in the pocket watches I have worked on if the hole jewel is inverted it will sit too high in the balance cock, allowing for too much end shake. I also assume even with an encabloc (sp) setup inverting the cap jewel would be almost impossible, but I could be mistaken there...

I guess I should add that inverting a jewel in a pocket watch would also make fitting the cap jewel impossible.

Having looked at some images of the 7009 movement I would first check the upper pivot and make sure it isn't bent or broken. With the movement dial down and balance installed hold it at eye level and gently raise and lower the balance wheel with your tweezers and see how much end shake you have. It should be barely perceptible, if excessive then I would check the above items.

[davidrrd]

Got it! Thanks guys... I will be checking that on the next couple of days if my daughter allows me :-P .... And whatever I find on the process I will let you know! [emoji120]????

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[jdm]

9 hours ago, khunter said:

Nope, I meant the hole jewel.

You can't fit hole jewels upside down on a Seiko or any modern watch with anti-shock, because they have a chaton (free setting). But you can put the cap jewel inverted if not paying attention.

Edited January 26, 2018 by jdm
A better pic

[khunter]

5 hours ago, jdm said:

You can't fit hole jewels upside down on a Seiko or a modern watch with anti-shock, because they have a chaton (jewel setting). But you can put the cap jewel inverted if not paying attention.

Im glad you left off my next statement, which was "I'm not familiar with this caliber......" and went on to qualify my reasoning as it pertains to watches I am familiar with.

I'll defer to your wisdom with these, but I believe it will be either a staff issue or possibly an alignment issue with the hairspring/stud, or the bridge, as the basic mechanics of all mechanical watches is the same.

 

[jdm]

Just now, khunter said:

I'll defer to your wisdom with these, but I believe it will be either a staff issue or possibly an alignment issue with the hairspring/stud, or the bridge, as the basic mechanics of all mechanical watches is the same.

I'm not debating that at all, I just wanted to clarify about the anti-shock balance jewels.

[khunter]

4 minutes ago, jdm said:

I'm not debating that at all, I just wanted to clarify about the anti-shock balance jewels.

Duly noted Thinking out loud without the benefit of enough coffee gets me in trouble now and then.

Although the incabloc is designed to prevent staff breakage, is it common or even possible for the balance jewel to break? That could be another possibility. 

 

[davidrrd]

Hey Guys,
First of all I wanted to thank you again for
All your help and advices.
So I finally managed to take some time and work on the faulty project. Following the advices I disassembled the balance assembly, passed everything on the ultrasonic and put it back together. It took me a longtime and I was loosing patience at the end. Mostly because it was my first time tearing down the balance.
I followed the videos on how to deal with the hairspring by Mark L. As an introduction and they helped me a lot.
I believe my work can be improved by using a better magnification (which I will be looking for) but it is not bad for a first time. The watch is assembled and running.... Now I will wear it and see how it runs. Not having a timegrapher I am not able to verify its accuracy but I will keep comparing with my other watches.

At the same time I was able to do the same for another project : a 7005 which was in an awful state when I got it. Scrap movement to study.... But I managed to get it running again which makes me very happy. (Dial was so rusty that cleaning it meant taking out all original marks) it will become my first experimental painting project... Hopefully in a near future.

I learned a lot!

David

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[Deggsie]

Glad you managed to get this movement working. I would guess it was the jewel or end stone which was still contaminated? The 7009a was the first auto I worked on but not the best to learn from. If you happen upon one on ebay, try the AS2063 for a good Swiss auto. By the way I have a 5 series dial in great condition except 1 dial foot is missing. Pm me if you need it

Regards

Deggsy

 

 

 

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[davidrrd]

Glad you managed to get this movement working. I would guess it was the jewel or end stone which was still contaminated? The 7009a was the first auto I worked on but not the best to learn from. If you happen upon one on ebay, try the AS2063 for a good Swiss auto. By the way I have a 5 series dial in great condition except 1 dial foot is missing. Pm me if you need it
Regards
Deggsy
 
 
 
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Hey Deggsie... I'll check out the watch you just tell me about. Thanks for the advice. I think I see what you are talking about when talking about the 700, it just helped me to dive into it and start my way, break the glass. I will be a bit more confident when working in another movement. Looking maybe on getting a 6497 or a 2428 to practice on.

Anyways. Step by step. And yes I think that was the reason a contaminated jewel or end stone. Something I will be looking at on my next projects.
(And thanks for the proposition for the dial I'll let you know :-) )
David

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