Special Tool for Longines Regulators? Baguette.

[MrRoundel]

I felt pretty good that I was able to service a couple of small ladies watches to give my nieces for Xmas. They liked them very much. Using the overconfidence I developed during this time, I decided to try and fix a little Longines 4LLV movement for my GF. Once I disclosed to her that the lower balance pivot was broken, she told me to just give replacing the staff a good try, that she wouldn't be upset if it went bad. Well, it went rather badly.

To start with, I was surprised to find that Longines decided to incorporate what I hope is a proprietary design, isolated to one company's offerings, on the hairspring retainer at the regulator pin. Rather than having a slot for being able to turn it away with a screwdriver, they provided a hole through the retaining stud that one could come in from the side and turn it away, thereby releasing the hairspring from the regulator. I was able to get a brass tapered-pin through it, but of course it bent before moving the part. Eventually I used some narrow-nosed optician's pliers to grab the stud, and was able to turn it. Of course it also bent the regulator pin. I figured that I could bend that back during reassembly and be fine.

As I went further, it got worse. I probably should have asked here before attempting to remove the hairspring, but thought I'd be able to get it with the twist-and-lift method, coupled with the lever from underneath technique. By the time I removed it, it looked like I had bent it a touch. Then it "flipped" on me and magically tied itself in a knot.  Dang, the others had gone so well. Granted, they didn't need a staff or anything.

I ordered a parts/replacement movement or the watch, as I didn't find a hairspring for it anywhere, and the movement was probably less than it would have been anyway.

So my questions are: 1.) Does Longines have a proprietary tool for dealing with the hairspring retainer issue? 2.) What would you use if you didn't have such a tool? (Bear in mind that the smallest of K&D sub-punches is too large for the hole.) 3.) What tool/method do you use for lifting hairsprings from small, 5 ligne'ish, movements? Many thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. Cheers.

 

[wolfwatchwerks]

Where is the hole located top, center or bottom of the stud? I don't believe there would be a special tool for this. Is there a "foot" on the bottom of the large pin? I am assuming there is. Using a balance tack grip the bottom of the pin at the foot with your tweezers and turn. Then loosen the stud with the balance resting on the bench. I am sure at the factory they do have a specialized tool for ease and speed of assembly. A home made tool could be easily enough to produce from the sounds of it, if one thought it necessary. A sewing pin perhaps. You would need only get the tip into the hole and twist gently to rotate this little pin. Yes brass would not be strong enough to break the grip. Steel rivet pressed into the brass curb boot.  Not 100% but this is what I am gleaning from your description. Does this sound about right or am I way off in left field? Hopefully this helps you out for future projects. Tweezers are the watch technicians samurai sword. Also, please remove the opticians pliers from your work bench.  LOL..!! 

[StuartBaker104]

I have come across regulator boots with a hole instead of a screwdriver slot on a number of movements. They are a bit fiddly, but easier to deal with than the numerous movements I’ve seen where the screwdriver slot has been chewed up. I have a couple of sewing needles in my box of ocasionally used tools which work well here.

Sometimes the boot won’t turn freely. Instead of applying excessive force, apply some light oil to the rivet head and where the boot meets the regulator and wait a minute.

[MrRoundel]

Thanks, guys. Like I said, I should have come here first. :-( Live and learn.

I feel like an idiot for somehow thinking that the tool would have to go all the way through the hole. It makes sense that just the tip of a needle would do the trick. Dang. Oh well, If I ever find a hairspring for it, I'll restaff it and see if I can get it running again. At least I didn't destroy a running movement. It's a small consolation.

BTW: Most of the damage I inflicted on the movement was once it was removed from the cock, in getting the HS off the shoulder. Do you use home-made tools for that? I'll do a search on HS removal tools to see what I come up with.
 

Thanks again. Cheers.

[StuartBaker104]

I don’t know how much damage you’ve done to the HS? If it’s totally toast then by knowing that the 4LLV is the same as a Longines 13.15V, you can find a new balance assy here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Longines-13-15-V-complete-balance-721-1-balancier-complet-/201861491779?hash=item2effe1ec43

If not, then Mark has some good videos on correcting hairsprings. There is usually some fiddling about in fitting a new HS so worth watching these anyway.

To remove a HS from the collet you can use hand lifting levers

[MrRoundel]

Thanks, StuartBaker104. I was looking at those combination hand/collet lifters. The Bergeons are pricey, of course, but are probably worth it. There are bargain Chinese lever being sold, but I think they sell a lot of that stuff so cheap in order to compile mailing lists, etc., so I'm loathe to order from China. I'll definitely invest in a set of something. I have been using either screwdrivers with a dial protector, or a Presto lifter for the hands. I had made a hairspring lever, but it's not a very good one.

Thanks for looking up the balance. I was not aware of the cross-reference to the 13.15V for the balance. That will help if the one in the donor watch isn't in good shape. These little ladies watches are being given away right now. I was tempted to buy another Hamilton, working, cased, and with a decent twist band, for a mere $5. plus $3 shipping.

The hairspring is FUBAR. I tried to straighten it but didn't have any tweezers with fine enough tips to get in without messing it up further. So, I messed it up further. I have watched a video or two of Mark's, and he did help me straighten a bent hairspring, but it was much larger than this one. I think I'd need to use smaller tweezers, as well as higher than 4x magnification. Thanks again. Cheers.

 

[MrRoundel]

Hmm...I think there a couple of that model, 13.15V available for about what I paid for the 4LLV. It also looks like they are shock-protected, where most of the 4LLV's are not. If my GF was going to wear the watch often, I'd surely prefer the one with the Incabloc. There are a lot of 4LLV's out there with broken staffs, but they're mostly the the non-Inca type, FWIW. Cheers.