Universal Geneve 1-42 / Cleaning without trouble?

[giacometti]

Hi there,

although as a novice in all affairs in watch repair and maintenance I have some experience in the field. Cleaning of calibres down to 10‘‘‘ is no problem including Incablocs. But before beginning with a calibre <10'''  I want to ask you as experts:

Must I reckon with „specialities“ cleaning an Universal Geneve 1-42?

Tips and tricks are highly appreciated

giaco

 

[bobm12]

Hi giaco,

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "specialities", but I've always followed the same principles as with larger calibers. Inspection of the jewels is important and pegging them is recommended. Also, sometimes it is a good idea to let the parts in the solvent to remove stuff that pegging may not soften and then clean normally. Again, just as you do with bigger stuff. The size may require higher magnification for inspection and a finer whittling of the peg stick...but it is all the same IMHO.

Cheers,

Bob 

[giacometti]

THanks, bobm12! You encouraged me to go forward. "Specialities": special tools needed, special care or so.

What kind of solvents do you use? I think TRI (Trichlorethane) is a proper solvent, or benzine or Isopropanol. (I worry about the jewels, that's why I only apply short exposure times.)

 

 

[presto0906]

Naptha soak for as long as you can bear to wait - then IPA wash. No ultrasonics - will seriously erode defined edges and any existing scratches - you may not notice by naked eye but you would notice before and after under the loupe!. Naptha and IPA are reasonably benign - obviously don't inhale the fume, Benzene is a dangerous carcinogen even at low exposure levels - DO NOT USE!

[jdm]

17 minutes ago, presto0906 said:

No ultrasonics - will seriously erode defined edges and any existing scratches - you may not notice by naked eye but you would notice before and after under the loupe!

Never heard of that and never seen these effects even under the loupe. Ultrasonic cleaner are normally used by watchmaker without any problem.

http://www.elma-ultrasonic.com/en/products/watch-cleaning/elmasolvex-va/

[presto0906]

Cavitation erosion caused by ultrasonics is well known - this is a stock warning in the instructions of any such cleaner you buy today - don't believe me? - just download a set for any table-top U/S cleaner you care to mention and read the cautions. The industry today use U/S because it is quick, cheap and and they don't have the eco expense of disposing of waste solvents.  Do a trial yourself - get a piece of the wife's (pre-worn) jewelry and examine under the loupe - make a mental note of what you see - now put the item through a U/S cycle and examine again and you will soon see what I mean 

As I said U/S loves nibbling at sharply defined edges such as watch gear teeth - OK it wont erode them it one U/S cycle but it will cause as much life-limiting wear as the gears in operation. U/S was never traditionally used to clean watch bits (~30 years ago) cos of course the tech did not exist/the cost of a U/S unit was prohibitive until comparatively recent times

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by presto0906
omission

[presto0906]

Just to add - the 'elma' will appear to work on watch bits - not because of the U/S but because of the solvent bath it uses. U/S is NOT effective in removing organic deposits (such as dried mineral oil on watch bits) U/S works on hard, resonant surfaces i.e. metal and mineral - by eroding them. In my industry before I retired (nuclear) U/S was strongly peddled by the supply chain 20-odd years ago as a cleaning panacea once all the halogenated cleaning solvents were  proscribed - but our trials showed it was the solvent or reagent used in the cleaning bath that was doing the biz and not the U/S. Better approach is a cleaning tank with a slow paddle stirrer to refresh the solvent in contact with the items being cleaned. Of course elma and the likes (Chinese imported BTW) say they are good for watch bits - they make them and want to sell them!

[giacometti]

very informative, thanks for hat!

We always used Tri in the field of nuclear physics to remove any deposits such as finger prints in vacuum tubes, pumps etc.. But today Tri is forbidden to use. However that was a super solvent.

What I worry about is that the solvents such as naphta or isopropanol would affect the shellac glued jewels in the escapement mechanism. Is that true?

 

[Marc]

4 hours ago, presto0906 said:

Cavitation erosion caused by ultrasonics is well known - this is a stock warning in the instructions of any such cleaner you buy today - don't believe me? - just download a set for any table-top U/S cleaner you care to mention and read the cautions. The industry today use U/S because it is quick, cheap and and they don't have the eco expense of disposing of waste solvents.  Do a trial yourself - get a piece of the wife's (pre-worn) jewelry and examine under the loupe - make a mental note of what you see - now put the item through a U/S cycle and examine again and you will soon see what I mean 

As I said U/S loves nibbling at sharply defined edges such as watch gear teeth - OK it wont erode them it one U/S cycle but it will cause as much life-limiting wear as the gears in operation. U/S was never traditionally used to clean watch bits (~30 years ago) cos of course the tech did not exist/the cost of a U/S unit was prohibitive until comparatively recent times

 

A good way to illustrate this phenomenon is to place some small strips of aluminium kitchen foil into your u/s tank with just plain water and run it for a couple of cycles. Have a look at the result through a loupe and if your u/s is working properly you will see ragged edges and pin holes that weren't there to start with. 

Since trying this out myself my u/s only gets used for stainless steel cases and bracelets; movement parts go through an aging but still very effective Elma (non u/s).

[jdm]

I know nothing about nuclear physics but I know from my experience and observation that u/s causes no erosion to wath parts. If anyone can prove the contrary with e.g. statement from leading industry source or microphotography (on watch parts not soft aluminium) I would read that with interest, until then I stand by my opinion.

[presto0906]

Please yourself pal - just Google ultra-sonics and cavitation erosion - plenty there to digest! 

[presto0906]

2 hours ago, giacometti said:

very informative, thanks for hat!

 

We always used Tri in the field of nuclear physics to remove any deposits such as finger prints in vacuum tubes, pumps etc.. But today Tri is forbidden to use. However that was a super solvent.

 

What I worry about is that the solvents such as naphta or isopropanol would affect the shellac glued jewels in the escapement mechanism. Is that true?

 

 

 

We used to use carbon tetrachloride - then it was banned! - then, as you, we used trichloroethylene - then it was banned! - then we used 'Gen-clean' (naptha) - then it was banned! - then we just chucked stuff away :). Still use naptha though via Zippo lighter fluid from specialist ciggy shops (Swan fluid has some naptha in it but only ~ 20%). Naptha is not half as good as carbon tet - you need to soak much longer and must wash off with IPA else the originally dissolved gum will just be left (IPA complexes it and it evaporates with it - IPA is no good as a cleaner on its own - good on its own to chase H2O off electrical contacts though  )

[presto0906]

Don't know about the shellac-glued jewels - some on Google say its a myth some say it is true - better play safe!

[presto0906]

(Where did you work BTW - ENEL by any chance? )

[jdm]

18 minutes ago, presto0906 said:

Don't know about the shellac-glued jewels - some on Google say its a myth some say it is true - better play safe!

IPA dissolves "glue" or shellac on pallet forks and hairsping terminal studs. From experience not just Google. 

[giacometti]

I was frightened by your contributions on the application of u/s. I did execute the experiment with aluminium film and in fact mini wholes can be seen after even a short application. I wonder if the same would happen to alloys with copper.

Thus I think that lititz watch technicum / sawta also is far away of cleaning with u/s. It might be only a question of costs for many repairers to us u/s there I can follow you.

An immersion tank with agitation is thus what I am designing as described.

[bobm12]

I've always used the ultrasonic but have in mind I'm not sonicing the hell out of the same movement until it completely dissolves!

Used properly, ultrasonic can be a good and fast method for cleaning and yes it does erode stuff (cavitation ) and also generates heat as a result, but is reasonably safe for watch parts. If used excessively, parts will show discoloration...just as your everyday baskets for cleaning parts do (they are always in the ultrasound). Alcohol is something to use far away from anything shellac...and Ronsonol (naphta substitute) is good for soaking and also cleaning if you are not too critical about the end result looks.

My combination is L&R extra fine cleaning solution and L&R watch cleaning solution in the ultrasonic...and btw, don't put anything flammable in that machine. I have good results so far and never a problem.

Some (most?) professional machines like the L&R models use agitation and may or may not include an ultrasonic feature.