weird stop-and-go timegrapher readings after balance staff change and pallet stone refitting -- Vostok 2414

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

As here the conversation is about matching hairsprings/balances in russian watches, I have some information that will help to understand what is happening.

The supplier of material for hairsprings is only one for USSR/Russia watch factories and they are not able to reproduce it with small enough tolerances. The batches of coils with the profiled wire (may be it is called ribbon or tape?) every time have slightly different thickness and other parameters. The hairsprings always are produced from the wire with same shape - length, diameter, number of coils and angle between beginning/end. Thus, when the wire parameters change with the next batch, the 'strength' of the new hairsprings changes too. To solve this problem, the balance wheels are turned with different moment of inertia to meat the different hairsprings strength for every new batch. Further, within every batch, the hairspring manufactured are tested and separated to 20 groups of strength, the balances again separated in 20 groups of moment of inertia and every group of hairsprings is matched to related group of balances. As the balance wheels are easier to manufacture with desired and predictable parameters, and the hairsprings is harder to make with desired strength, they first make the hairsprings with whatever strength will be and then make balance wheels to match the hairsprings.

That's super interesting. The deviation I'm seeing is quite extreme, though. 

Well, we'll see soon when I get to put in a balance complete from the other watch. Normally, I should be able to make some time on Wednesday... 

[Knebo]

Oooookkkk everyone!

Thanks again for your help.

I can now confirm that it was the balance wheel / hairspring mix-and-match. I know, most of you were sure already, but I was still a bit incredulous about the MASSIVE deviation (close to one HOUR per day). But yes, that was it. I put in a balance from another 2414 and it worked very well. 

I put the two hairsprings next to each other (the one matching the balance wheel and the one I used) and I "feel" as if I can literally see the difference in thickness. I took a photo, but somehow it didn't save

Anyway, I'll now be trying to bend the old+correct hairspring into shape and put it on my freshly restaffed balance wheel

[VWatchie]

5 hours ago, Knebo said:

I can now confirm that it was the balance wheel / hairspring mix-and-match.

Our next party question. What are two separate parts that are inseparable? 

[RichardHarris123]

43 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Our next party question. What are two separate parts that are inseparable? 

Two very strong magnets?

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Our next party question. What are two separate parts that are inseparable? 

Testicles ?

[Knebo]

I'm super proud of myself today! 

Not meaning to show off, just wanting to share my joy:

1. First time replacing a balance staff -> success (and cleaned/restored my staking set in the progress) 

2. First time refitting a pallet stone - > success (and build myself a little tool for it) 

 

Then came the confusion that started this thread... so thanks all for your guidance! 

 

Then... 

3. Bending the old/correct hairspring into good shape in both dimensions (concentricity and flatness) -> success 

 

Next challenge was unexpected. Every once in a while, I was getting traces like this (especially in vertical positions):

 

So back to fault finding.. 

Identified two things:

i. centre wheel has quite a wobble, out of flat 

ii. a LOT of endshake on most train wheels, particularly the 4th wheel. On the latter, it actually resulted in the oil creeping from the jewel diwn the pivot to the pinion spokes. The pivot shoulder was so far from the jewel that there was no capillary action left to hold the oil (notably not even HP1300) 

 

So next corrections:

4. Managed to bend the centre wheel into a good flat shape (in situ) 

5. Adjusted the train jewels with my Seitz press. Very little endshake now. 

 

In sum, pretty much every aspect of the train and escapement needed fixing. And I did it

 

Now, I'm delighted with the results:

Vertical direct comparison/improvement to the above:

 

And dial up:

 

This shitty, excuse me, Vostok has taught me a lot!!! 

[RichardHarris123]

Most of us on here are too hard on ourselves, so you deserve to bask in your achievements.  Genuinely happy for you. Well done .

[Knebo]

1 minute ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Most of us on here are too hard on ourselves, so you deserve to bask in your achievements.  Genuinely happy for you. Well done .

Thanks! It was a long and bumpy road until this result. Took me a month (well, I only get to work on watch 2-3 times a week, maybe 2-3h each session). 

[Neverenoughwatches]

Great work , some of which was probably needed when it left the factory, bet its never ran so well.

[RichardHarris123]

Have you missed an apostrophe? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Have you missed an apostrophe? 

Haha no apostrophe...just plural... missuses....wife women folk

We're also in the wrong thread ....my I am nitpicky this evening

[RichardHarris123]

It's?

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

It's?

I said mine was terrible sometimes . Bet it's ( it has - contraction ) never worked so well.  Call the punctuation police

[tomh207]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I said mine was terrible sometimes . Bet it's ( it has - contraction ) never worked so well.  Call the punctuation police

You rang? It’s actually it is.

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, tomh207 said:

You rang? It’s actually it is.

 

Tom

Lol or it has , to have,  in its present perfect form within a negative sentence.  I blame predictive text, it has no idea what I want to do. Come to think about it, neither do I .

My daughter is way worse than me, chief officer of grammer policing in Yorkshire. Text messages stress her out, she corrects me to the point that I will only ring her now. " Dad what the hell is this you've just messaged me ?  there are 12 tenses, please use them correctly or not at all. You're supposed to be learning English, I would ask for your money back ! "  Anyone want a 31 yr old daughter ?

[tomh207]

@Neverenoughwatches no thanks, got one in her 40’s and another to be there very soon!

 

Tom

[VWatchie]

16 hours ago, Knebo said:

I'm super proud of myself today! 

You certainly have a right to be! Congrats!

16 hours ago, Knebo said:

3. Bending the old/correct hairspring into good shape in both dimensions (concentricity and flatness) -> success

I've been trying this many times but never really succeeded. For some reason, Archimedean spirals confuse my brain. I know they have an absolute centre, but I can't find it for some reason. The only time I truly succeeded in manipulating a hairspring was by @nickelsilver helping me out by drawing arrows in an image of where to push. I feel very envious that you are ahead of me! 

16 hours ago, Knebo said:

5. Adjusted the train jewels with my Seitz press. Very little endshake now. 

It seems you got it just right! In my experience, however, there's such a thing as too little end-shake especially when working on these Russian movements where the tolerances are pretty crude. It's a bit like shoes, just right is the best but if that's not possible it's better with a little too large than too small. Anyway, it sure looks like you nailed it!

16 hours ago, Knebo said:

Now, I'm delighted with the results:

And should very much be so. I've probably had nearly a hundred Vostok movements on my TM, even brand-new movements, and have very rarely seen results like that. A bit of roller coaster is simply the norm for these movements. So again, congrats! 

16 hours ago, Knebo said:

This shitty, excuse me, Vostok has taught me a lot!!!

Yes, they are great to learn with, but let's not forget these movements were never meant to be marvels of Swiss precision, but inexpensive and practical enough to be afforded by the masses. For this reason, and IMO it would be unfair to call them anything derogatory. A few decades ago these movements were manufactured by the many millions every year. It's a general misconception that the Russians are unable to produce quality in anything. The quality level is a very deliberate choice, and there are plenty of examples where Russian technology far exceeds Western technology.

Edited February 20 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, tomh207 said:

@Neverenoughwatches no thanks, got one in her 40’s and another to be there very soon!

 

Tom

You have to love them...right ? Or at least pretend to

[Klassiker]

6 hours ago, VWatchie said:

there are plenty of examples where Russian technology far exceeds Western technology.

Maybe showing my ignorance here, but I can't think of any.

[VWatchie]

11 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Maybe showing my ignorance here, but I can't think of any.

That's because we don't hear much about it in mainstream media (if ever?!), but some examples are:

Aerospace and Space Technology
Military Technology
Nuclear and Submarine Technology
Electronic Warfare and Cyber Capabilities

Anyway, my point was simply that the goal of the Soviet/Russian watch industry was to produce affordable yet reliable watches for the masses, whereas the Swiss watch industry focused on serving a free market.

[JohnL]

Please excuse my ignorance here, I usually stick to the newbie forum, but may I ask if it's only the hairspring and balance wheel that are synced, or does it include the balance staff? I presume just the wheel, otherwise replacing balance staffs would be more problematic, but better to ask. I'm unlikely to be replacing the balance staff on a wheel any time soon, but it would be good information to have if I ever do, and good to be able to discount things if I see problems.

14 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Maybe showing my ignorance here, but I can't think of any.

Their implementation of waterproofing on the Vostoks overcomes their manufacturing limitations to produce something far superior to other watches in that area 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, JohnL said:

Please excuse my ignorance here, I usually stick to the newbie forum, but may I ask if it's only the hairspring and balance wheel that are synced, or does it include the balance staff? I presume just the wheel, otherwise replacing balance staffs would be more problematic, but better to ask. I'm unlikely to be replacing the balance staff on a wheel any time soon, but it would be good information to have if I ever do, and good to be able to discount things if I see problems.

In theory I guess the balance staff is accountable as it forms a portion of the mass along with balance wheel that the hairspring is matched to. But the staff has to conform to lots of other things in the movement that are more important than just the addition of its mass. Thats why there are tens of thousands of different sizes and shapes. But the matching would be done with the hairspring and the balance as one piece.

I wouldnt expect the moment of inertia to change much with the addition of the staff, but the hairspring has to fit somewhere and the staff provides a seat and a pivot to allow oscillation when vibrating the hairspring. Maybe thats different in a factory setting ?

Edited February 21 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnL]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I wouldnt expect the moment of inertia to change much with the addition of the staff,

It's not something I'm really familiar with, but I think I'm of a similar mind. The staff should, in theory, and I'm working solely on the basis of general logic and a working knowledge of physics, have less impact than the wheel. That allows a balance staff to be replaced, but the wheel is more of an issue to pair with the hairspring. The fact that people replace balance staffs and even make the replacements suggests this must be true in the majority of cases. Again, not basing this on practical experience, just extrapolating from what little I've picked up so far.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnL said:

It's not something I'm really familiar with, but I think I'm of a similar mind. The staff should, in theory, and I'm working solely on the basis of general logic and a working knowledge of physics, have less impact than the wheel. That allows a balance staff to be replaced, but the wheel is more of an issue to pair with the hairspring. The fact that people replace balance staffs and even make the replacements suggests this must be true in the majority of cases. Again, not basing this on practical experience, just extrapolating from what little I've picked up so far.

I think so, a balance staff's mass is compact and close to the axis of rotation so would have far less impact on rate than any change to the wheel's wide distribution of mass. A change of balance staff would result in no mass change, except in maybe density, quality of material which would be extremely negligible. Hairsprings are not vibrated to a wheel after a staff change so that proves that idea.

[RichardHarris123]

The staff will affect the moment of inertia but the tolerance of a new staff means it's negligible.  Yes the density of the new staff has an effect but basically diddly squat.