Surena watch - unknown movement and some problems

[frog54]

Hello!
I am working on this surena but i have not been able to identify the movement, which is a pity as some teeth of the ratchet wheel are broken and i would like to change it. Do you have any idea?

On another hand, i am unable to remove the ratchet and crown wheels. The screws seem totally stuck. Have you any ideas?

[AndyGSi]

The bridge makes me think FHF but can you post the size and if possible remove the dial and post a photo of the setting levers.

[frog54]

Sure. I was thinking fhf too but was not able to identify it

[AndyGSi]

Bridge looks like an FHF 10-22 but levers are wrong. What's the size?

https://watch-movements-archive.com/watch-movement/fhf-10-22/

Edited August 28, 2024 by AndyGSi

[frog54]

22mm, it matches ! Thank you!

How did you find it? Just by experience?

[Nucejoe]

Just now, frog54 said:

On another hand, i am unable to remove the ratchet and crown wheels. The screws seem totally stuck. Have you any ideas?

 

Remove the hands, dial plate, balance and fork.

Drop the rest in Coca Cola for 30 hrs soak.

Do not postpone disassembly after the soak.

All screws including the two small ones on cap stone plate will then unscrew with incredible ease. 

I would loosen screw of the keyless, but don't remove until identification.

Rgds

[frog54]

Thank you and thanks for the website! 

It seems it is a fhf 125 : https://watch-movements-archive.com/watch-movement/fhf-125/

[AndyGSi]

21 minutes ago, frog54 said:

Thank you and thanks for the website! 

It seems it is a fhf 125 : https://watch-movements-archive.com/watch-movement/fhf-125/

I don't think it's an FHF 125 as the bridge and click are both different.

Are there no marking under the balance.

[frog54]

True, I will look in the fhf movements

[AndyGSi]

Best place to look now if you've got the patience.

https://ranfft.org/caliber/index?CaliberSearch[name]=fhf&CaliberSearch[movement_type_id]=&CaliberSearch[dimensions]=22&CaliberSearch[launch_year]=&page=1&per-page=30

[frog54]

I think I have no choice, I do not find it lol

[AndyGSi]

To throw a spanner in the works I would have expected an FHF to be marked either dial side or under the balance if not both.

[frog54]

Unfortunately, there is no marking at all. 

[JohnR725]

when asking for help for dedication of a movement it's helpful to give us a size that is measured on the dial side and not in millimeters. I'm attaching a chart you need to be in lignes as that's what all the watch references use.

On 8/28/2024 at 12:30 PM, frog54 said:

22mm

so looking at the chart we find that is an odd size which is a problem. but I guess that makes it close to 9 3/4 a starting point. Less things for me to look at.

as you're discovering finding a mystery watch can be a bit of a challenge. The Swiss and I don't know if others countries or watch companies did this but the Swiss came up with a interesting system of fingerprinting a watch basically. As the plates can change typically the setting components do not. So have what they basically call a fingerprint system which is why we need a clear picture of setting components. But your one component is unique enough I can work with that. The size is needed because they're listed by size and if we don't have a size it increases how many somebody has to look at or perhaps not look out at all because there's too many to look at or we might miss one because were trying to go through too many

then in order for the fingerprint system to work watch has to exist. What I mean by that is whoever made the movement had to make sufficient quantity that parts were available. The somebody took the time to record the setting components for identification for finding parts. The problem with watches there a lot of watches that there is no identification at all and there's no fingerprint system that works because nobody cared about the spare parts at all.

then if you have the physical bestfit book the fingerprint system works a lot easier because the setting components will actually fit on top of the pictures. Then a course in the absence of having the physical watch we need a good picture so I've rotated it so it matches what I'm looking at the bestfit book it makes it a lot easier when I'm trying to find something. How and I didn't just look at the bestfit book I looked at several other books and no I can't find it at all. On the other hand I might've been tired and missed it as I was suspicious of the size measurement and had to expand my search considerably.

fortunately the one visible setting component is very visually unique which does make looking to the books easy except as I said it doesn't seem to exist?

 

On 8/28/2024 at 12:23 PM, AndyGSi said:

FHF

I always find the initials confusing because I'm never sure what maker that is especially when the letter H isn't found in the name of the company at all. Even more confusing when you look at the online listings they use the letters FF.

so for instance snipped out the website below you do have FHF except it goes to the same place as fpnt so obviously are not the only person confused.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/

now in the absence of me finding really fingerprint parts let's look at the other confusions of this discussion like it was a promising link except? You notice in some of the descriptions they even reference that the plates can be different and that comes about because? Companies they get a custom-made movement for instance can have different plate designs the setting components will be the same but the plates will not this is why comes back to the setting components have to match and that definitely does not.

23 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

FHF 125

so on the website link we get this image

there was your other choice once again setting components wrong and I really wish this website instead of showing just the plates when you go down the list they should show the front and the back as that would make it so much faster.

so basically a watch has to have come into existence at a time when people were making up the fingerprint system sometime in the 40s up until perhaps the 70s that this watch is not from the 70s. A lot of newer watches we use the same setting components of the fingerprint system is in a broken and modern watches more useful in vintage but only if it was ever documented

On 8/28/2024 at 11:42 AM, frog54 said:

i am unable to remove the ratchet and crown wheels. The screws seem totally stuck.

now just a reminder sometimes the crown will screw is left-handed and typically is not marked and occasionally the ratchet wheel all the oh I have no idea why so just remember they could be left-handed and you're actually making them tighter rather than looser.

Then here's an example out of the bestfit book so you can see what it looks like

 

then struggled something and no that's not what it is setting parts are wrong in one of the vintage books I did find some that were not exactly the same and also unhelpful because it's a brand that doesn't seem to exist at all.

[AndyGSi]

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I always find the initials confusing because I'm never sure what maker that is especially when the letter H isn't found in the name of the company at all. Even more confusing when you look at the online listings they use the letters FF.

FHF is Fabrique d'Horlogerie Fontainemelon with the H being the centre part of their logo.

After a second look through Bestfit I'm fairly confident that it's a Beguelin movement but with limited
details on them and these only shown as 10 1/2 or 11 1/2 lignes I've been unable to get any further.

[frog54]

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

when asking for help for dedication of a movement it's helpful to give us a size that is measured on the dial side and not in millimeters. I'm attaching a chart you need to be in lignes as that's what all the watch references use.

so looking at the chart we find that is an odd size which is a problem. but I guess that makes it close to 9 3/4 a starting point. Less things for me to look at.

as you're discovering finding a mystery watch can be a bit of a challenge. The Swiss and I don't know if others countries or watch companies did this but the Swiss came up with a interesting system of fingerprinting a watch basically. As the plates can change typically the setting components do not. So have what they basically call a fingerprint system which is why we need a clear picture of setting components. But your one component is unique enough I can work with that. The size is needed because they're listed by size and if we don't have a size it increases how many somebody has to look at or perhaps not look out at all because there's too many to look at or we might miss one because were trying to go through too many

then in order for the fingerprint system to work watch has to exist. What I mean by that is whoever made the movement had to make sufficient quantity that parts were available. The somebody took the time to record the setting components for identification for finding parts. The problem with watches there a lot of watches that there is no identification at all and there's no fingerprint system that works because nobody cared about the spare parts at all.

then if you have the physical bestfit book the fingerprint system works a lot easier because the setting components will actually fit on top of the pictures. Then a course in the absence of having the physical watch we need a good picture so I've rotated it so it matches what I'm looking at the bestfit book it makes it a lot easier when I'm trying to find something. How and I didn't just look at the bestfit book I looked at several other books and no I can't find it at all. On the other hand I might've been tired and missed it as I was suspicious of the size measurement and had to expand my search considerably.

fortunately the one visible setting component is very visually unique which does make looking to the books easy except as I said it doesn't seem to exist?

 

I always find the initials confusing because I'm never sure what maker that is especially when the letter H isn't found in the name of the company at all. Even more confusing when you look at the online listings they use the letters FF.

so for instance snipped out the website below you do have FHF except it goes to the same place as fpnt so obviously are not the only person confused.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/

now in the absence of me finding really fingerprint parts let's look at the other confusions of this discussion like it was a promising link except? You notice in some of the descriptions they even reference that the plates can be different and that comes about because? Companies they get a custom-made movement for instance can have different plate designs the setting components will be the same but the plates will not this is why comes back to the setting components have to match and that definitely does not.

so on the website link we get this image

there was your other choice once again setting components wrong and I really wish this website instead of showing just the plates when you go down the list they should show the front and the back as that would make it so much faster.

so basically a watch has to have come into existence at a time when people were making up the fingerprint system sometime in the 40s up until perhaps the 70s that this watch is not from the 70s. A lot of newer watches we use the same setting components of the fingerprint system is in a broken and modern watches more useful in vintage but only if it was ever documented

now just a reminder sometimes the crown will screw is left-handed and typically is not marked and occasionally the ratchet wheel all the oh I have no idea why so just remember they could be left-handed and you're actually making them tighter rather than looser.

Then here's an example out of the bestfit book so you can see what it looks like

 

then struggled something and no that's not what it is setting parts are wrong in one of the vintage books I did find some that were not exactly the same and also unhelpful because it's a brand that doesn't seem to exist at all.

thanks ! do you have the references of this book?

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, frog54 said:

references of this book?

the most common book that people are using for watch repair would be bestfit. If you ask nicely somebody will come along and tell you where you can find a PDF.

then in my case I had several other reference books which are not available as a PDF. The problem with repairing a vintage watches is you end up with a lot of vintage reference material was never scanned to PDFs

[Neverenoughwatches]

We could have a look at what is suggested so far .

 

Neither are quite there.  Looking in the Flume catalog might give more clues

Cluedo,  who dunnit 

I like the Flume catalogs, arranged by size and maker but also an added aid of setting levers by hole number.

Its also handy to know what the pallet design is if it has one with Flume  to narrow the page search down. 

Cant tell but I will assume stoned,  which i may consider to help me focus

So 1957 Flume catalog throws a few ideas up, the identification process with Flume is very useful, it cuts down search time, a lot. Clues towards FHF in 3 holes set levers also Cyma and Eberle. Then i see something interesting,  the keyless layout is a good match, the set bridge looks the closest so far,  the plate size maybe a little bigger than has been given , but that set bridge....... is promising............lets find out who S.F.H is.

Edited August 31, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[AndyGSi]

Mikrolisk comes up with these.

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I like the Flume catalogs,

  Rich, why have I never heard of Flume !  What am I missing, what have you been hiding from me ?

(whilst googling for Flume, I found this great document which is like a Swiss version of Bestfit. Follow the second link on this page https://omegaforums.net/threads/download-official-catalogue-of-swiss-watch-repair-parts-1949-1959.88089/ )

Edited August 31, 2024 by mikepilk

[AndyGSi]

Found this but still no more details on SFH

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264406264200

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Mikrolisk comes up with these.

Thanks Andy that saved me the time as i was just going out 

7 hours ago, mikepilk said:

  Rich, why have I never heard of Flume !  What am I missing, what have you been hiding from me ?

(whilst googling for Flume, I found this great document which is like a Swiss version of Bestfit. Follow the second link on this page https://omegaforums.net/threads/download-official-catalogue-of-swiss-watch-repair-parts-1949-1959.88089/ )

Haha you only had to ask mike . I've used and posted info from flume before. You have heard of Flume before, they made watch parts and tools. Ohhhh the Swiss parts catalogs  ......... yes i also have that lol

5 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Found this but still no more details on SFH

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264406264200

That looks like a match Andy.  I name Professor Plum the murderer

[Neverenoughwatches]

If it has something to do with the Stern brothers listed in Mikrolisk they were dial makers to Patek and bought them outright.  Look for a small star logo......... star ( stern )

[AndyGSi]

It appears to be just called a 10 1/2 Anchor movement.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335510913935?_nkw=watch+sfh&itmmeta=01J6N7GSRMANF6PWD4Z80G4B3Y&hash=item4e1e02438f:g:PakAAOSwp2tlhAzH&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKnUntaaXnGFSu6xsg4hAHpbmacEGPQ%2BJwtkErlU2QyKLAHhXgvgxAuUikd5ceTwToAxJ590Qyj%2Bort0%2FBCRozeAFsNrvCaAB2R0kL4i7krh8NvoVwMsfdLDR3HLAdnCzjPCaqADSSTsuvLnDLCRwg%2B6egaBFrFyhfPN6Srxfw%2FClOvJ4cCZkYbdUevbY05MM%2FuhZPuAh10ZNLkToti3P5gzPo6yhshvdOlsP%2FGUABjFn8dscHztGmNwmGkX9izQSkoaliLlL%2B5xcAZbgaJL0wri|tkp%3ABk9SR7acw6e1ZA

Edit

SFH is Sofranhor

Edited August 31, 2024 by AndyGSi

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

It appears to be just called a 10 1/2 Anchor movement.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335510913935?_nkw=watch+sfh&itmmeta=01J6N7GSRMANF6PWD4Z80G4B3Y&hash=item4e1e02438f:g:PakAAOSwp2tlhAzH&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKnUntaaXnGFSu6xsg4hAHpbmacEGPQ%2BJwtkErlU2QyKLAHhXgvgxAuUikd5ceTwToAxJ590Qyj%2Bort0%2FBCRozeAFsNrvCaAB2R0kL4i7krh8NvoVwMsfdLDR3HLAdnCzjPCaqADSSTsuvLnDLCRwg%2B6egaBFrFyhfPN6Srxfw%2FClOvJ4cCZkYbdUevbY05MM%2FuhZPuAh10ZNLkToti3P5gzPo6yhshvdOlsP%2FGUABjFn8dscHztGmNwmGkX9izQSkoaliLlL%2B5xcAZbgaJL0wri|tkp%3ABk9SR7acw6e1ZA

Edit

SFH is Sofranhor

Heres a clue Andy, the location on mikrolisk matches this.