Need Replacement Sub Dial Hands...any Suggestions?

[jeepguy25]

Hey all!  New to the forum.  So far I found some great info! 

 

Im by no means a watch tech...but I do enjoy my watches.  I do pretty much everything else by myself, so recently when I found one of my watches not working, I decided to give it a try.

 

The watch is nothing special.  At least as far as I can tell.  Its too new to have any "history".  An Elgin with the 6P89 movement.  It has 3 sub dials.  Date, Day and 24hr.  Its neat. It belonged to my late uncle, but doesnt really hold any significant sentimental value...which is why I decided to give it a try.

 

Anyway, I got a new movement, removed everything, and had it all set up to start installing the hands.  Much to my dismay, I realized that I busted the pinions off inside of the sub dial hands.  I was as careful as I could be haha.  I tried to clear the hands, and managed to get one clear by pushing through the "face side" of the hand with a needle.  I installed that hand on the date dial, so I was able to then set the hour/minute/second hands.  All works great!  The other two subdial hands werent so lucky.  I eventually destroyed one trying. 

 

So at the moment Im wearing the watch, and its working well.  I cant for the life of me find a source for the smaller hands.  I think it might be because I dont know the sizing conventions.  The measurements of the hands are somewhere around 3.6mm from mount hole to tip.  And I THINK the pinion size is 17?  Thats .17mm?  I got that from the info on the movement. 

 

Anyone have some words of wisdom for me haha?  Im posting a couple pics of the watch and a close up of all the hands.  I think I can take it to a shop and get something that works.  But not sure how much they'll charge.  To keep with the theme that I did this very cheap and on my own, I was hoping to just find replacement hands. 

 

Thanks in advance for any advice!!

 

 

 

Justin

[Michael]

Hi, to answer your question, you could try www.cousinsuk.com as they have a section for watch hands, and then search for sub dial hands. If you have broken the pinions off your new movement, then you might try to get hold of your original movement, as this might be a source for spare parts. Good luck

[swordfish]

I believe that the mechanism in your watch was manufactured by Miyota.  (See http://www.jewelerssupplies.com/MIYOTA-6P89.html).  The specs for the second hand(s) indicate a diameter of 0.18 mm, which is awfully close to your measurement of 0.17 mm.

 

You can easily measure the length of the subsecond hands now on your watch to know exactly what replacement size you need.

 

I am in the United States, so I tend to use Cousins only if I cannot find what I need domestically.  I see that the American firm S.T. International (http://stsupplyonline.com/catalog/small-second-hands-c-567_597.html) sells small second hands for $2.50 each, but I don't see any in black.  Of course there are many other suppliers too. The options I see for you are:

(1)  look around for a different supplier

(2)  get three replacement subsecond hands of the same non-black color

(3)  get two white ones and paint them black with a marking pen.  

 

Good luck!

--Eric, a.k.a., Swordfish

[WillFly]

You often see job lots of assorted hands on eBay - worth a look now and then. You might pay a few pounds for 50 assorted hands in a lot - the risk being that, in spite of the quantity, nothing fits!

 

However, worth a thought if all else fails.

 

Cheers,

 

Will

[jeepguy25]

Hey thanks for the replies everyone!! 

 

I hadnt found eithe rof the websites listed above, so Im checking those out now.  Looks promising! 

 

As for the hand mesurements, the site that I got the movement off of lists the hands as 17.  But the other site provied by swordfish shows them as 18.  Not sure which to go by haha.  I did not break the pinions on the new movement.  They're good to go.  I only snapped the pinions off the non-functioning movement when removing them. 

 

Im usually pretty good at finding odd items on the internet.  I have seen the large batches on ebay.  But my fear is, like stated, that I wont find any in there that match.  Ide much rather get 3 or 4 matching.  I also dont want to risk trying to pull the one good hand back off again haha.  I just turned up zero when I tried to find any suppliers.  Im also just kind of not up to speed with all the measurement lingo on the sites that I have found. 

 

Im going to check out the US site first, then move to the UK site failing that. Im actually ok getting white hands and painting them black.  That'd be just fine if they're the same size/shape as the remaining one!

 

Thanks again for all the help!  Im really surprised at how delicate these parts were.  I knew going in that they would be delicate...but .17mm pinion diameter is crazy to me!  I was able to line things up pretty well.  Being picky, I notice that my second hand isnt ticking quite dead onto the "tick marts" around the face.  I wont be messing with it though I dont think.  I can set the remaining two hands without messing with whats already on.  Here's hoping!

 

Justin

[jeepguy25]

I actually went on Citizen's website...since apparently they use the Miyota movements in some watches.  They have all the technical specs on the movement, including drawings.  Im a draftsman...so this is perfect haha.  The pinion measures 170, units in 1/1000mm, so .17 is the correct size.  Im going to see if the US supplier can provide me with a picture for their "small second hand" since the site doesnt show it.  If its even close, ill order 2 or 3 white hands and paint them.

 

Thanks!!

[swordfish]

jeepguy25, you taught me a good lesson. I was troubled that your information and mine, concerning the pinion—is that really the right word? Perhaps it should be post or pivot, I'm not sure—diameter were different. So I downloaded the schematic directly from Miyota. (Find it at http://www.citizen.co.jp/miyota_mvt/download/pdf/draw_6P89.pdf). That schematic shows that the diameter is indeed 0.17 mm, as you had measured. The lesson for me is not to rely on secondary sources of information.

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[jeepguy25]

Not sure if pinion is correct or not.  I thought I remembered seeing it.  I like to learn as much as I can about new projects, including terminology haha.  PInion to me is in a differential.  But I figured it worked. 

 

Thats exactly where I found my info.  It looked plenty official.  They even have a parts list for the movement.  Though at $15, I dont know who would want to fix the movement vs replacing it. 

 

Thanks for the help!  Just waiting to hear back on the style of those hands offered by STSupply.  Just want to make sure theyre the "barbell" shape or whatever they call them. 

 

J.

[swordfish]

I checked in a reference book on watch repair. The word we want is pivot. The pinion is the small part of a gear which interfaces with the teeth of a larger wheel. The "teeth" of a pinion are called its leaves. A post, in contrast to both of those, doesn't move.

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[jeepguy25]

There ya go. That sounds like it makes sense. Pivot it is! Just waiting to hear back from the US company on the style of their hands. Guess I'll call them Monday.

J.

[CKelly]

You might also try Otto Frei. They have a variety of hands and they picture the different styles. I normally would have also said try Esslinger as they ship much cheaper and are quick however I checked their new site and no longer see small sub dial hands listed

[jeepguy25]

Sweet thanks!  I found hands there...but they're listed at 5mm long.  No big deal, I can probably trim them.  Plus they're already black.  So Ill just need to touch up the tip where I cut to length.  Problem is, I dont know how wide they are so Ill have to inquire. 

 

The STSupply place still hasnt responded.  They are the right length, but are white.  So ide need to paint them. 

 

The real issue is, they both have a minimum order of $15 before shipping, then $10 for shipping.  Insane consider the size of these things. Whichever company can give me some feedback will likely get my business.  Im leaning towards Otto. 

[CKelly]

I had forgotten about their minimum order. When that happens I just usually order something else like screwdriver blades that I'll use sooner or later. If you are new to watch repair just take a look at the tool section and I'm sure you'll see something you can use.

Charles K

[bobm12]

Welcome and great job jeepguy. I was recently shopping for a .17 sub dial hand and nobody seemed to have them. I ended up using a big second hand and trimming it to size...just in case those are more available now.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[jeepguy25]

Thanks for the tip Bob! 

 

I actually considered getting bigger hands and trimming.  However, I painted myself in a bit of a corner by installing the one good hand that I was able to re-use.  Im afraid to try to pop it back off, and because Im **BLEEP**, I want all three hands to be identical. 

 

If I could find a large second hand, that matched, and all I needed to do was trim, Ide be all in. 

 

There always the chance that the small hands I get wont match 100% too.  Actually Ill have to paint them black haha.  If they look out of place compared to the existing one, I will likely try to swap them all.  Just a little more carefully this time!

 

Justin

[rogart63]

Have some subhands for a lemania 1873 movement . Is that anything that could work ? They are black and looking like the hands that the OP posted 

[bobm12]

That depends since the movement is made by Citizen, the lemania hands might not have the same diameter, rogart.

 

Jeepguy, it is possible to get what you want, when looking at a center seconds hand for possible trimming, also look at the tail. You can actually use the tail as the small hand by removing the opposite end, the longer one. Some center seconds hands have the tail that look like the hands you are looking for. Just an idea...

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[rogart63]

That depends since the movement is made by Citizen, the lemania hands might not have the same diameter, rogart.

 

Jeepguy, it is possible to get what you want, when looking at a center seconds hand for possible trimming, also look at the tail. You can actually use the tail as the small hand by removing the opposite end, the longer one. Some center seconds hands have the tail that look like the hands you are looking for. Just an idea...

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

Was my thought also .But haven't found anything about the lemania hands size . I thought maybe one hand or two could work . 

[CKelly]

Hi,

   I just checked again on the esslinger.com site and the sub dial hands are back in black and several other colors. There is a drop down box and all you have to do is select the color, style of hand and the hole size. Their price is $2.95 per hand. Shipping usually depends on the option you chose. Be careful there I think default shipping is something pricey. They have no minimum order 

Edited November 6, 2015 by CKelly

[bobm12]

I will have to check on them too, my stock of those are non existent at the moment!
Thanks for the heads up.

[jeepguy25]

Thanks for the heads up on esslinger!!!  Im about to pull the trigger on them.  3 hands, and $3.50 for shipping brings it to like $12.  WAY more reasonable. 

 

I see they list the legnth as 5mm.  I wonder if thats pivot to tip? Or overall.  I can trim the tiny bit extra off.

 

Im assuming "stick" style matches what I have going on with my watch.  Again, Ide like them to match perfect, but Im becoming less picky haha.  No one else will ever notice, and I dont plan to sell it.  

 

So I might snag them.  

 

Justin

[bobm12]

They are usually measured from tip to the center of the hole.