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Posted (edited)

Following on from my question about identifying screws in the AS2063 movement that basically fell out of the case in bits, I’m pleased to report that I’ve got it all back together, and the movement is running pretty well. 
 

But…

There’s something wrong with the keyless works and hand setting. It’s fine in winding and quickset date position - these work - but in hand setting position winding the crown turns the whole gear train.  I don’t really understand how it’s meant to work. It doesn’t have a traditional friction fit cannon pinion.  The second wheel is unusual with a pair of smaller pinions on it, which seem to interact with the barrel and the motion works. 
 

Could this be the problem? I must admit I just cleaned it and popped it in place when reassembling the gear train. I’ve lubricated the pivots but didn’t do anything to the extra bits on the second wheel. 
 

Does this make sense and is anyone able to figure out what I’m doing wrong? Thanks in advance, as always. 
 

ETA - the parts list calls it the Great Wheel, not second wheel. 

Edited by Bonefixer
Posted
51 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

Following on from my question about identifying screws in the AS2063 movement that basically fell out of the case in bits, I’m pleased to report that I’ve got it all back together, and the movement is running pretty well. 
 

But…

There’s something wrong with the keyless works and hand setting. It’s fine in winding and quickset date position - these work - but in hand setting position winding the crown turns the whole gear train.  I don’t really understand how it’s meant to work. It doesn’t have a traditional friction fit cannon pinion.  The second wheel is unusual with a pair of smaller pinions on it, which seem to interact with the barrel and the motion works. 
 

Could this be the problem? I must admit I just cleaned it and popped it in place when reassembling the gear train. I’ve lubricated the pivots but didn’t do anything to the extra bits on the second wheel. 
 

Does this make sense and is anyone able to figure out what I’m doing wrong? Thanks in advance, as always. 
 

ETA - the parts list calls it the Great Wheel, not second wheel. 

Post some pictures , some good close ones of the parts you've described. 

  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Post some pictures , some good close ones of the parts you've described. 

That will mean dismantling the gear train, which with 5 pivots to align was a pain. Probably going to have to though. I'm convinced it's something to do with the great wheel. 

Posted
2 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

That will mean dismantling the gear train, which with 5 pivots to align was a pain. Probably going to have to though. I'm convinced it's something to do with the great wheel. 

You'll have to strip it back anyway.

  • Like 1
Posted
5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Post some pictures , some good close ones of the parts you've described. 

It looks like the canon pinion function is part of this great wheel. The pinion nearest the clip runs the minute wheel on the dual side. The pinion nearest the wheel is driven by a small wheel from under the setting lever cover plate that engages in hand setting position. 
 

So when assembled the crown was driving the whole great train. Does this mean the pinions are too tight? Should I attempt to disassemble this great wheel and lubricants?

IMG_0036.jpeg

IMG_0037.jpeg

Posted
43 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

It looks like the canon pinion function is part of this great wheel. The pinion nearest the clip runs the minute wheel on the dual side. The pinion nearest the wheel is driven by a small wheel from under the setting lever cover plate that engages in hand setting position. 
 

So when assembled the crown was driving the whole great train. Does this mean the pinions are too tight? Should I attempt to disassemble this great wheel and lubricants?

IMG_0036.jpeg

IMG_0037.jpeg

What this extra disk next to the pinion? Thats not part of the assembly 

Posted
On 4/25/2024 at 8:19 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

I dont understand why a patreon membership would have limited places ??

 

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What this extra disk next to the pinion? Thats not part of the assembly 

Also at a strange angle  

Posted
4 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

 

Also at a strange angle  

It shouldn't be attached 

 

50 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

It looks like the canon pinion function is part of this great wheel. The pinion nearest the clip runs the minute wheel on the dual side. The pinion nearest the wheel is driven by a small wheel from under the setting lever cover plate that engages in hand setting position. 
 

So when assembled the crown was driving the whole great train. Does this mean the pinions are too tight? Should I attempt to disassemble this great wheel and lubricants?

IMG_0036.jpeg

IMG_0037.jpeg

The pinions look independent of each other, not in alignment,  but the clip is bothering me or have you just placed that on the pivot end? 

1 hour ago, Bonefixer said:

It looks like the canon pinion function is part of this great wheel. The pinion nearest the clip runs the minute wheel on the dual side. The pinion nearest the wheel is driven by a small wheel from under the setting lever cover plate that engages in hand setting position. 
 

So when assembled the crown was driving the whole great train. Does this mean the pinions are too tight? Should I attempt to disassemble this great wheel and lubricants?

IMG_0036.jpeg

IMG_0037.jpeg

Found a cannon pinion maintaining clip in the tech sheet, is that the disk on the end and is broken.  Whatever happened to exploded diagrams 😠

Posted
21 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It shouldn't be attached 

It most certainly should be there, but it should fit better than that.

Here is what it should look like.

IMG_0620a.thumb.JPG.3e00a0cb47a338e751e8343d3a6b8d7f.JPG

  • Like 2
Posted (edited)

Doctor, If the train turns when hands setting, this means that the train is not blocked. And this is true for all kinds of trains design. The train is normally blocked by the lever. So, put the lever in place and try again. If the train turns again, search where You have placed some wheel upside down and it is not meshed with the next one in the chain. The other thing is the amount of friction that is needed to overcome when setting hands. Yes, the friction part here is in the great wheel, and it needs lubrication. If the parts are dry, then friction will arise, seizing will happen and thus risk of breaking of teeth in the train or breaking of joint wheel/pinion.

I don't know this calibre, but I guess the clip is part of the friction device. But for sure it stays tilted, which is not normal. So, pay attention to it and see what is wrong there

Edited by nevenbekriev
  • Like 2
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Marc said:

It most certainly should be there, but it should fit better than that.

Here is what it should look like.

IMG_0620a.thumb.JPG.3e00a0cb47a338e751e8343d3a6b8d7f.JPG

Couldn't see it on the tech sheet , picture is a bit fuzzy though . Is that to keep the pinions pressed on Marc ?

Screenshot_20240427-203600_Drive.jpg

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
Posted
8 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Is that to keep the pinions pressed in Marc

It's a little circlip style retaining clip to keep the pinion from riding up out of position.

  • Like 2
Posted

The part was how it fell out of the movement - the train wheel bridge wasn’t screwed in. 
 

I’ll probably dismantle the part, if I can, to work it out. 
 

The train of wheels ran fine - it was only once the keyless works were installed I noticed the problem. 

Posted

Have you got the pallet fork installed in the movement when you see the train move when using the setting works?

As nevenbekriev said, without the pallet fork to lock the train, the behaviour you are describing is normal.

If this is happening with the pallet fork installed, you have a problem in the gear train, it should be immobile when the pallet fork is locking the escape wheel. 

The fit of the circlip above the pinions on that wheel is crooked in your pictures, it should sit flat up against the upper pinion as in Marc’s picture. 

Hope that helps,

Mark

  • Like 1
Posted
6 hours ago, Mercurial said:

Have you got the pallet fork installed in the movement when you see the train move when using the setting works?

As nevenbekriev said, without the pallet fork to lock the train, the behaviour you are describing is normal.

If this is happening with the pallet fork installed, you have a problem in the gear train, it should be immobile when the pallet fork is locking the escape wheel. 

The fit of the circlip above the pinions on that wheel is crooked in your pictures, it should sit flat up against the upper pinion as in Marc’s picture. 

Hope that helps,

Mark

Pallet fork was in. I’d had the movement running ok, and only removed the balance to flip it over and install the keyless works and date mechanism. The pallet fork wasn’t locking the gear train when hand setting - it was oscillating as the escape wheel rotated. This may have been in one direction only - can’t remember. 

Posted
2 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

Pallet fork was in. I’d had the movement running ok, and only removed the balance to flip it over and install the keyless works and date mechanism. The pallet fork wasn’t locking the gear train when hand setting - it was oscillating as the escape wheel rotated. This may have been in one direction only - can’t remember. 

The cannon pinion (be it conventional style or what you see in this movement) should slip on its arbour so the hands can be set independently without affecting the gear train. 

If there is too much friction between the cannon pinion and the second wheel, turning the hands to set them backwards can sometimes force the escape wheel teeth to overrun the pallet stones, creating the behaviour you describe. The train is running in reverse when this happens. 

This can often chip the pallet stones. I’d say at least half of the watches I’ve inspected with very tight cannon pinions had chipped pallet stones. Hopefully this isn’t the case with your watch. 

I’m not familiar with this movement but you need to get the friction in the cannon pinion adjusted correctly. 

Hope this helps,

Mark

  • Like 1
Posted

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies. I think between us we’ve worked out what’s going on. Next job is to have a proper look at this great wheel assembly, see if I can remove the clip and the friction fit pinion, give the bits a good clean, then put it back together with a bit of blue grease. I’ll also get the pallet fork under the microscope to see if it’s ok or been damaged. 

  • Like 2
Posted
40 minutes ago, Bonefixer said:

It started well. Got the clip off, cleaned in B-dip, bit of grease, then ping 😫. Lost the clip trying to refit it. 
 

I'll get a replacement from eBay. 

IMG_0042.jpeg

You haven't lost it , its just hiding from you..

  • Haha 2
Posted
1 hour ago, Bonefixer said:

I'll almost certainly find it now I've ordered another. 

Yep thats the way it goes. The trick is to lead it into a false sense of security. Go through all the motions of ordering another one but dont actually click that final buy it now button, then stand up say " oh well at least I have another one on the way" .  It will pop its head out and shout " SUCKER ! " . They've done studies you know 60% of the time it works everytime. 

  • Like 1
Posted

New Great wheel arrived, rebuilt the watch and managed not to break anything. Had a minor issue with a screw I'd found to use to secure the date corrector wheel - it was fouling the escape wheel. Changed for a shorter one and it seems all good. 
 

Running pretty well I think - not yet adjusted it, will let it run for 24 hours first. 

IMG_0055.jpeg

  • Like 3

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