Reducing pivot hole diameters with a Staking Tool

[dnhb]

I've seen - & achieved - reductions in pivot holes in brass plates but can this be done in steel plates e.g. as used in small Timex movements such as the M23?

[nevenbekriev]

What makes You think that there are steel plates in Timex movements?

[dnhb]

4 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

What makes You think that there are steel plates in Timex movements?

Well they don't appear to be brass....

BTW hardly a good response for the "Safe Zone for learners"....

[Marc]

I believe that the fundamental principals of shaping and moving metal with punches remain the same irrespective of what metal you are considering; i.e the material under consideration has to be sufficiently malleable to deform rather than break, the punches that you are using to push the metal around must be harder than the material that you are trying to move, and you need to hit the punch hard enough to to move it.

In the case of steel you have to consider the grade of the material. Any kind of carbon or tool steel is going to present problems on at least two counts. Firstly it is unlikely to be malleable enough to deform before it breaks, especially if it hasn't been tempered from its full hardened state, in which case it could well just shatter. Secondly, the punches in your staking set are made of the same material and are therefore going to have about the same level of hardness as the material that you are trying to form. As a result you are going to deform you punches to the same extent as the work piece.

If we're talking about mild steel or some other free machining alloy then this is likely to be softer so you will have a greater chance of success, although you may have to use more force to achieve the same level of deformation as you would with brass.

5 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

What makes You think that there are steel plates in Timex movements?

 

53 minutes ago, dnhb said:

BTW hardly a good response for the "Safe Zone for learners"....

This is a perfectly reasonable and sensible question to ask. You have deduced that the plates in your Timex are made from steel, which would be an unusual choice of material for this application but not impossible. Someone who doesn't absolutely know if your deduction is right or wrong and has doubts about your conclusion might well be reluctant to provide an answer on the grounds that they get it wrong, so a request for further information is perfectly reasonable and sensible. It is in fact a "good response" in the "Safe zone for learners" as it helps to encourage a more thorough investigative approach to identifying the problem, something that is of enormous value if if the most appropriate solution is to be found.

In this instance your conclusion is incorrect. In common with general horological* practice Timex watch plates are made from brass. Timex (and a lot of other manufacturers) have then electroplated it with another material, either for aesthetic reasons or to protect the underlying brass, or both. Whatever Timex use is silver in colour, but it is not steel. One simple test for this is a magnet, but if you're feeling a little more adventurous and don't mind the damage then try lightly running a file over the edge of the plate in a non-critical area, you'll very quickly see the silver colour come off and the yellow brass colour show through.

This of course is good news as it means that you are dealing with a material that you already know.

*One of the more notable exceptions to this is the use of an alloy called German Silver, which is actually a copper alloy with zinc and nickel (no actual silver). It is silver in colour but is non-magnetic.

[dnhb]

7 hours ago, Marc said:

 a request for further information is perfectly reasonable and sensible. 

I agree & would have appreciated such a request as "are you sure they are steel rather than electroplated brass?". More to the point, however, I am really grateful for your comprehensive post.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, dnhb said:

I agree & would have appreciated such a request as "are you sure they are steel rather than electroplated brass?". More to the point, however, I am really grateful for your comprehensive post.

Hi please keep in mind that English is not the first language of many folk here. Words and phrases can have slightly different meanings to different people. Consider Nev's words again as the question it was meant to be. # what makes you think there are steel plates in Timex movements  #  what makes you think ? = why do you think ?   This is a change of just two words only, yet the perception of the attitude of the questioner can be very different . To Nev they probably are exactly the same and perceived the same. Nev's first language is not English and is still learning to understand it's idiosyncrasies better.

[nevenbekriev]

I am sorry. My pen is sometimes more sharp than neded, and this is due my temper. The idea that someone might think the plates may be made not of brass, but of still, made me wonder how and why is this possible. But Rich is right, i don't see any difference in the meaning of the both phrases.

See, the main problem of no jewels Timex watches is the wear of the balance staff tips. They wear for 2-3-4 years of constant use and the watch may still work, but with lo amplitude and bad timekeepinng. The way to restore the movement is to sharpen the tips and if they have been sharpened allready 2-3-times, then the cup bearings must be restored too. Just forget the other bearings, no significant inprovement will happen from there.

Edited March 2 by nevenbekriev

[dnhb]

On 3/2/2024 at 9:08 PM, nevenbekriev said:

I am sorry. My pen is sometimes more sharp than neded, and this is due my temper. The idea that someone might think the plates may be made not of brass, but of still, made me wonder how and why is this possible. But Rich is right, i don't see any difference in the meaning of the both phrases.

See, the main problem of no jewels Timex watches is the wear of the balance staff tips. They wear for 2-3-4 years of constant use and the watch may still work, but with lo amplitude and bad timekeepinng. The way to restore the movement is to sharpen the tips and if they have been sharpened allready 2-3-times, then the cup bearings must be restored too. Just forget the other bearings, no significant inprovement will happen from there.

My Dear Nev, I do apologise for my knee-jerk reaction to your original reply: I responded without thinking, as Neverenough reminds me, that English is not everyone's first language & instead assumed that I was on the end of another of those aggressive posts that are all too common on Social Media more generally. In the circumstances I am particularly grateful for your considered response above.

[rehajm]

I thought it was a dig at timex…🫨

…I also like the Timex discussions as I will likely never choose work on them but appreciate others taking on the challenge. There are some lovely pieces out there that will continue to improve in collectability…

…and to steer back on track for OP or anyone who has never tried- as offensive as it seems, there are extensive instructions from K&D about staking pivot holes- an economic solution for an economic watch or some sort. Make sure the stake tip has symmetry. The big challenge is in restoring the hole to center. Lots of open/close/check with the whole train in the movement…