Elgin PW Winding mechanism

[arron]

Hi Guys,

Well, I got a little too cocky thinking big of myself for bringing this Elgin 16s 7j Serial 17412116 PW back to life; only to have the winding mechanism not work once I put it all back together.  When I used my bench winder, the sliding clutch works just fine, moving to the right to engage the winding pinion.  However, when in the case, the sliding clutch/pinion does not move far enough to the right to engage the winding pinion.  Sometimes if I put enough pressure on the crown I can get it to move over enough.  It's like the stem of the crown is not quite long enough to do its job; but it worked fine before I took it out of the case.  Thoughts on what the problem could be?

 

One issue I've noted is that I'm not positive I have the spindle that goes through the sliding and winding pinions in the correct orientation; because I failed to take a picture of it when it was disassembled.  The spindle has a nail head on one end.  Initially I put it in with the nail head towards the center of the watch.  I think that is the correct orientation because when I reversed it, the winding mech function more poorly, feeling like there was grinding going on.  Am I correct that the nail head goes towards the center of the watch?   Thanks for any advice.

[nevenbekriev]

Yes, the 'nail head' is to the center. You have to adjust the position of the slieve, by turning/screwing it deeper with screw driver. If the crown touches the bottom of the neck of the case, but still not winding position is reached, then the stem of the crown is really short

[JohnR725]

Before you service the watch could you wind it up and how did the winding and setting work in the case? In other words before servicing a watch did you note up problem from winding and setting something that you would fix later on?

 

50 minutes ago, arron said:

I put enough pressure on the crown I can get it to move over enough. 

3 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

You have to adjust the position of the slieve

I Was going to suggest wrapping the watch with rubber bands they work really good for holding the crown tight against the case. But okay if you really want to do the proper repair yes the sleeve needs to be adjusted. I was thinking maybe a picture might help. So many people get used to a normal keyless mechanism they totally fail to grasp the importance of the case and what purpose it does for American pocket watches typically.

 

51 minutes ago, arron said:

I failed to take a picture of it when it was disassembled

While continuously solving problems is a fun thing to do and watch repair it's amazing what one photo will do. When you're dealing with American pocket watches especially when you get older it's always nice to get a picture because the older mechanisms are very very clever more clever than this. Then the center pin can only go in one way so basically it's in the right orientation gets slighted in and I usually put a little bit of lubrication on and definitely lubrication on the end head words rubbing on the parts there

 

[arron]

Thanks for the tips guys.  I replaced the stem sleeve and adjusted it all the way down and the crown is seated on the pendant, so I'm off to find a longer stem.  This one is obviously too short.  I won't swear that it wound properly before I disassembled it; but it is my normal practice to check the winding and setting mechanisms before disassembly.  I've been out of sorts the last couple months so it may be that it had this winding problem from the start.  I'm hoping to be able to report back a successful restoration; we'll see :) Have a good day.

[arron]

Can I bother you guys with another questions about this movement.  Before I plunk down $30 to replace the stem, I want to make sure that the movement is worth saving.  It was a non runner when i got it.  I could tell the balance wanted to work as it would move ever so slightly after a wind.  The balance jewels had a lot of gunk in it.  (almost forgot, the center wheel was frozen in it's pivot hole, so that was probably the main reason for it not running).  After cleaning, the balance took off like a champ.  With some regulation I'm able to get -16 sd, 215 amplitude and 1.8 BE.  With my skill level (or lack thereof) I was very happy with the way it's running.  I'm not sure thought if my excitement will be short lived because I'm noticing that when it's at the end of it's wind, the balance will suddenly stop and then very slightly move like it's trying to get going again.   At this stage I have a hard time getting the balance to freely move again even with a puffer.  If I give it a good wind again and shake the movement, it takes off again without issue.  I left it running over night too and it was running in the morning.  Question: Should I leave well enough alone, or might this be something I should figure out; if the latter, what things should I be looking for?  The only thing I can think of is maybe I didn't get the jewels quite clean or maybe i need to polish the balance and center wheel pivots.  Thank you.

[nevenbekriev]

I will open a secret for You. If You put something in the bottom of the crown hole, like short piece of wire, that will not let the stem screw to the end of the hole, this will 'elongate' the stem.

Now, for the problem You describe, I will advice to put a verry thinny quantity of oil on the roller periphery and see what happens. And demafnetise the roller (the whole balance) and lever.

Edited February 17 by nevenbekriev

[arron]

@nevenbekriev thanks for the tips.  unfortunately even with the crown barely catching the threads, the stem is still too short to engage the wind mech; which seems very odd to me.  Maybe someone recently re-cased the movement only to find the stem too short and then didn't bother is find a suitable replacement.

On the issue of the balance.  I will demagnetize the movement as you suggest.  I'm not understanding your point of adding oil to the "roller periphery."  Can you explain where you suggest to add the oil.  Thanks much.

[nevenbekriev]

1 hour ago, arron said:

@nevenbekriev thanks for the tips.  unfortunately even with the crown barely catching the threads, the stem is still too short to engage the wind mech; which seems very odd to me.  Maybe someone recently re-cased the movement only to find the stem too short and then didn't bother is find a suitable replacement.

This is really strange and I will advice to check if the movement will switch normally to winding mode by pressing the internal stem with some needle or another tool.

 

1 hour ago, arron said:

On the issue of the balance.  I will demagnetize the movement as you suggest.  I'm not understanding your point of adding oil to the "roller periphery."  Can you explain where you suggest to add the oil.

The roller is on the bottom side of the balance and it holds the impulse jewel. The periphery of the roller is the patr that interacts with the guard finger of the lever. The problem You described actually is because the finger incidently touches the roller when the balance rotates returning to the neutral position and blocks the balance returning due to the friction between roller and finger. That's why oiling the roller periphery helps. Oiling there is needed with verry small quantity, only film of oil, almost dry. This is only in movements with single roller, not contemporary ones!

[arron]

Cool.  I will try that.  And yes, the winding mech works fine when i use my bench key and can fully depress the spindle inside the sliding pinion.

[JohnR725]

On 2/15/2024 at 2:15 PM, arron said:

I replaced the stem sleeve and adjusted it all the way down and the crown is seated on the pendant,

 

1 hour ago, arron said:

unfortunately even with the crown barely catching the threads, the stem is still too short to engage the wind mech; which seems very odd to me.  Maybe someone recently re-cased the movement only to find the stem too short and then didn't bother is find a suitable replacement.

I'm a bit confused here? in the first quote above it says you replaced the stem and sleeve? So did you actually replace them with something new and different or what?

then playing with stuff at the end of the crown isn't going to change anything. The location of the stem is controlled by the sleeve itself this is why the sleeve is adjustable in the case. not only is the sleeve adjustable but they come in a whole variety of sizes and shapes for every case and variations in the length. Then there adjustable with the sleeve wrench like what is found in the image below.

 

 

1 hour ago, arron said:

Maybe someone recently re-cased the movement only to find the stem too short and then didn't bother is find a suitable replacement.

the unfortunate problem with American pocket watches is sleeve issues which is why you should always check the functions of the watch before servicing because at least you know you're going to have a casing problem later on.

15 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

The problem You described actually is because the finger incidently touches the roller when the balance rotates returning to the neutral position and blocks the balance returning due to the friction between roller and finger. That's why oiling the roller periphery helps. Oiling there is needed with verry small quantity, only film of oil, almost dry. This is only in movements with single roller, not contemporary ones!

I assume by finger you mean the guard pin? Then the guard pin should never be touching the roller and you should never require lubrication there it indicates there's a problem with the safety features of the escapement perhaps we should look into that.

 

[arron]

Hi John, sorry for the confusion.  What I meant to say is that I took out the old sleeve (with the trusty tool you pictured).  It looked like it was already seated as far down as possible, but the upper threads on it were buggered so I replaced it with a spare sleeve I had (actually this sleeve while it fits is too long for the stem--the sleeve is not catching properly on the stem detents (if that's the right word).  In order to get more length on the stem, before the bottom of the crown bottomed out on the case pendant, I unscrewed the crown so that it was just barely hanging on to the stem threads.  With that set up, I again tried pressing the crown down to engage the winding mech, but still the sliding pinion was not going back far enough to catch and turn the winding pinion (hopefully I've got my terminology correct).  

 

as far as the roller, i'll get it to stop again and then have a look at the pin guard to see if it's touching the roller.  It ran again all night.  it seems to run fine when under a good wind.

[JohnR725]

2 minutes ago, arron said:

I replaced it with a spare sleeve I had (actually this sleeve while it fits is too long for the stem--the sleeve is not catching properly on the stem detents (if that's the right word). 

this is one of the problems with American pocket watch cases is ideally you should replace with something identical to what you took out otherwise you're going to have issues like you're having. Then yes oftentimes you'll find that the top of the thread in part because people didn't have a proper wrench is totally screwed up or practically disintegrating.

So if you have the original stem it should work you just need to have a sleeve of the proper length. Which does present challenges because we don't have the assortments and all the various sizes like we did in the past.

4 minutes ago, arron said:

as far as the roller, i'll get it to stop again and then have a look at the pin guard to see if it's touching the roller.  It ran again all night.  it seems to run fine when under a good wind.

one of the unfortunate problems of vintage watches is you always have to check this safety features. In other words make sure the banking pins or where there supposed to be and of course check the guard pin clearance it's part of your safety checks. Plus of course make sure the guard pin is centered where it's supposed to be. Or basically have to check out the escapement to make sure everything is right.

 

[arron]

This is a good lesson that in addition to doing this pre-disassembly inspection, I need to document, by video or in writing, that  I did the inspection and the result.  Otherwise, I'll often just forget whether I did the inspection or the result that I found.  Live and learn.  Thanks again.

[nevenbekriev]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I assume by finger you mean the guard pin? Then the guard pin should never be touching the roller and you should never require lubrication there it indicates there's a problem with the safety features of the escapement perhaps we should look into that.

Yes, I mean the guard pin. And yes, it should never touch the roller, but still it is put there thow it should never touch the roller, and it is there because sometimes, ocasionnaly it actually touches it and thus prevents worse things from happening. Of course, we all know this. And, in single roller movements, if the roller/guard pin are absoluttely degreased, thow everything may be perfectly adjusted, ocasional stoppings are possible with pin touched to the roller and thus blocking the balance to return to neutral position, even if the escapement not unlocked. Such stops, if they are happening ocasionally sometimes, are easilly provoked by forcing the train backwards when amplitude is big. Adding thin oil film on the roller periphery in such case ensures normal work.  But yes, Aaron should check if the roller/guard pin are correctly adjusted and prevent escapement unlocking when balance is turned away from neutral position, this is of great importance for the safety and avoiding sudden stops.

[arron]

I wanted to report back on my progress so far.  The idea of putting a piece of wire in the crown actually worked; thanks @nevenbekriev.  I still have to push and hold the crown down to wind but I'm fine with that.

On the issue of the balance suddenly stopping with low power, that's been more frustrating.  I played around with the guard pin bending it away from the roller table; because it looked like it might be touching right before/after the moon cut out in the table.  All that did was cause (I'm guessing) the impulse jewel to immediately and consistently overbank.  So I bent the pin back into place and now it seems like it's rubbing against the table more than before.  Now I'm wondering if the real problem is that the impulse jewel in sitting parallel  with the edge of the table; it's a little eschew.  And maybe a bigger issue, there is an open crack  from the edge of the table to the balance staff and a hairline crack on the other side of the balance staff.  Maybe one or both of those are causing the sudden stoppage of the balance.  The table isn't loose however.  Now that I can wind it, I'm willing to try to find a donor movement to fix the table.  Wish me luck.  

[JohnR725]

48 minutes ago, arron said:

On the issue of the balance suddenly stopping with low power, that's been more frustrating.  I played around with the guard pin bending it away from the roller table; because it looked like it might be touching right before/after the moon cut out in the table.  All that did was cause (I'm guessing) the impulse jewel to immediately and consistently overbank.  So I bent the pin back into place and now it seems like it's rubbing against the table more than before.  Now I'm wondering if the real problem is that the impulse jewel in sitting parallel  with the edge of the table; it's a little eschew.  And maybe a bigger issue, there is an open crack  from the edge of the table to the balance staff and a hairline crack on the other side of the balance staff.  Maybe one or both of those are causing the sudden stoppage of the balance.  The table isn't loose however.  Now that I can wind it, I'm willing to try to find a donor movement to fix the table.  Wish me luck.  

the problem is escapement adjustment fall is a very exacting procedure which you are not following. Then the procedure should be followed in a specific order so that things turn out properly. Because as you find just randomly doing things has consequences

then unfortunately swapping escapement of components also require it escapement adjustment because typically these watches are adjusted for each watch that's why there's a serial number on the balance wheel and all the components it was made as a whole piece them adjusted as a whole piece. So typically when you start swapping escapement components you'll have to adjust for the new component. Especially as it sounds like yours isn't quite right in the first place. Which is unfortunately typical on vintage watches.

[nevenbekriev]

9 hours ago, arron said:

I wanted to report back on my progress so far.  The idea of putting a piece of wire in the crown actually worked; thanks @nevenbekriev.  I still have to push and hold the crown down to wind but I'm fine with that.

OK, but this is still not acceptable. This way You can pretty soon wear the winding/sliding pinion ratchet teeth. If the sleeve is screwed in to the end, You still can do something: Here I will open the other secret - You can add a 'piece of wire' in the bottom of the square hole of the movement part of the winding works, where the square stem enters.

10 hours ago, arron said:

On the issue of the balance suddenly stopping with low power, that's been more frustrating.  I played around with the guard pin bending it away from the roller table; because it looked like it might be touching right before/after the moon cut out in the table.  All that did was cause (I'm guessing) the impulse jewel to immediately and consistently overbank.  So I bent the pin back into place and now it seems like it's rubbing against the table more than before.  Now I'm wondering if the real problem is that the impulse jewel in sitting parallel  with the edge of the table; it's a little eschew.  And maybe a bigger issue, there is an open crack  from the edge of the table to the balance staff and a hairline crack on the other side of the balance staff.  Maybe one or both of those are causing the sudden stoppage of the balance.  The table isn't loose however.  Now that I can wind it, I'm willing to try to find a donor movement to fix the table.  Wish me luck.  

See, You need ro sit and read about the escapement action and adjustment. You conclusions and actions are to far from the point and actually childish naive (sorry, don't mean to affend).

As far I can conclude that You have normal drop lock, but You don't have DROW.

As I am not quite sure I use the correct terms in English, by drow I mean this: When You push the fork from one banking pin to the other, there is certain point where it snaps to the other pin. This point is on a certain distance (or angle) from the first pin. If You push the fork not that far, when You release it, it MUST go back to the first pin. It must 'stick' to the pin like it is a magnet, or gravitate to it. This effect I cal 'drow' The angle that is needed to move the fork to the point of 'snapping', or actually unlocking the escapement, I call 'draw angle'. The same effect shoud be on the other side (banking pin). Now, the lack of drow can be because of not well cleaned pallet stones and'scape wheel teeth (especially the rest surface). The other common reason for drow lack is worn 'scape wheel teeth, this is usually when the table of the wheel is made of brass and the movement has constantly worked more than, let say, 60 years. Correct lubrication of escapement helps to improve the drow, so it is important. 

Then, I will ask You to check if the guard mechanizm works correctly. What I mean is to turn the balance to let say 100 degr. to one side and slightly push the fork so the guard pin touches the roller. The fork should move to certain angle (There should be such movement, or free play. If it is to small or to big, then the guard pin position or banking pin position is wrong.), but this angle MUST be smaller than the drow angle, so the escapement MUST stay unlocked, and when released, the fork should return by itself to the pin by the action of the drow. Repeat the same by turning the balance to the other side and check the same there.

The crack in the roller should not be problem, unless You observe that the sudden stops are always with the guard pin stuck in the crack. But if the escapement is correctly adjusted and normally working, this should not happen, especially when the watch is working on the table. It is important thhat the roller must turn true, so the distance between it and the guard pon will not change all the time. The roller cracks when the hub diameter is to big, so may be the staff is made by someone and it is not clear if it is made as true as needed... So, check if the roller turns true when the balance rotates.

So, try to inspect the pallets and teeth, if there is still old hardened oil residues, use sharp wooden stick to remove them, wash everything again. Lubricate the escapement. Do the checks and report.

[arron]

@nevenbekriev I appreciate you taking the time to thoughtfully reply (John too).  I actually got a good chuckle from your description of my escapement diagnosis skills--no disagreement there.  As an elder (read: old) trial lawyer I've been called much worse, as you might imagine.  Some of us are not very mechanically inclined (me, for example) and can't devote tons of time to the hobby so our learning curve is much steeper and quite frankly some of the more complex theory is just beyond my desire to learn at this point in my process.  That will change as I build up some confidence in doing the basics.

 

That said, I really appreciate you and others taking time from your busy schedule to help us novices; you  don't have to, but you do.  If I can ever repay the favor, just let me know;  probably nothing to do with watches of course   but if you'd like learn about the law or how to fix a fountain pen, I'm on it.  I will make the inspections you mentioned before I buy a donor table and will definitely put the wire in the case.  I also have some watch repair books, so i'll read up on the escapement process.   Thanks and enjoy your day.  

[arron]

What a journey it's been on this watch.  There were several times when I really felt like giving up on this one.  I want to give a final update, before someone sneezes on the other side of the continent, and I have to start all over again, again.  Using the advice from you guys, I finally got this thing running for more than 12 hours without overbanking.  It now winds and sets.  the TG shows +68; 273; 4.9ms.  I'm thrilled with those results and don't even dare touch the regulator to slow it down a bit  .  I'm going to polish up the crystal and then stay as far away from this guy as I can.  I really appreciate everyone's help and hopefully it will help someone else down the road.  Have a great day.

[nevenbekriev]

See, I am not quite sure what You really mean by 'overbanking'. If it is what i suspect, then if the guard mechanism and whole escapement are correctly adjusted, such thing would never happen. It will be as able to happen as to lock a drawer so fast that to be able to throw the key inside the drawer untill closing it. And if it is able to happen, this means the guard mechanism doesn't guard at all. If the watch works for some time without it happening, this means nothing. You should try to provoke the overbanking to check if the guard mechanism function. Provoking in real life is shaking and shocking. Beter result in testing for overbanking gives forcing the train to turn in the oposite direction while balance oscillates with good amplitude.

Now I see my stupid mistyping of drOw in my previous post, which should be drAw... Sorry, English is not my language.

[arron]

If you are not a native english speaker, your english is actually very good.  Thanks for the advice.  I'm probably not going to provoke anything right away, lest I feel the desire to smash it with a hammer.