Omega 861; did I ruin the main-spring barrel ?

[Endeavor]

Hello All;

I may have made an expensive mistake

For quite some time I've been working on a 1975 Speedmaster Mark II with an Omega 861 movement. One of the problems was radial and axial play in & around the main-spring barrel. The 861 movement is known for its wear of the arbor hole in the barrel-bridge. To correct that, a bushing needs to be installed, for which I don't have the equipment. From pictures, according to our member @nickelsilver, the wear of the arbor-hole in the barrel-bridge isn't too bad.

The barrel / arbor also had some radial and axial wear, adding to the problem.

In an attempt to reduce the hole size of the barrel, using a stacking set, I may have made a mistake.

On the inside of the barrel there is a ring around the center. I was hoping that the ring was beefy enough to reduce the hole diameter with some careful taps, using 2x different sizes rounded stakes. But instead of reducing the holes size, it just became bigger.

My theory is that, even though the inner-ring may be beefy enough, the material surrounding the inner-ring, is not. The barrel-material wasn't strong enough to "support" the inner-ring and therefor, instead of "squashing" the internal of the ring a bit, I just expanded the whole ring.

Realizing my mistake, I used two flat punches to "squash" the inner-ring, but that goes, regarding the axial play, in the wrong way too.

I'm getting this suspicious feeling that I screwed up and may need to source a new or a 2nd hand barrel for a 861

Unless somebody has a brilliant idea what can be done?

(Perhaps somebody can help me out with a good replacement barrel (please PM me, preferably within EU))

Thanks for your help

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Endeavor

[rehajm]

Sorry mate. Looks like you have issues with both upper and lower. If there's good news a quick search for a replacement barrel shows they are readily available...

How does your plate hole look? That's an issue with these, too...

[RichardHarris123]

I'm not sure the replacement barrel is good news, I've seen the price. Ouch. 

[nevenbekriev]

Everything is still repairable. Do You have lathe and can use one? It is not so clear, is the problem hole this of the barel itself or the lid hole? It is much easier to make new lid than new barel... Axial free play is always easy to correct by using sphere head punch on a bigger hole anvil to make the bearing hole sink in needed direction. But, it is always tricky to correct barel holes by punch in staking tool, as true rotation of the barrel is easy to get lost this way, so I wonder why this kind of manipulation is so 'welcomed' in this forum

Edited December 26, 2023 by nevenbekriev

[Endeavor]

50 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Do You have lathe and can use one?

Sadly, no.

 

51 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

is the problem hole this of the barel itself or the lid hole

It's the barrel hole which was, and now even more so, is the problem. The hole in the lid is untouched and the play between the arbor / lid-hole seems very acceptable (meaning: low).

So, it's the hole in the barrel itself.

[rehajm]

Kalle doing an 861 today...

[Endeavor]

Nice video, but lots of talk !

Only at the end some mention of play in the main spring-barrel. Lets hope his next video has some more to the topic discussed here

Edited December 27, 2023 by Endeavor

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 hours ago, Endeavor said:

Hello All;

I may have made an expensive mistake

For quite some time I've been working on a 1975 Speedmaster Mark II with an Omega 861 movement. One of the problems was radial and axial play in & around the main-spring barrel. The 861 movement is known for its wear of the arbor hole in the barrel-bridge. To correct that, a bushing needs to be installed, for which I don't have the equipment. From pictures, according to our member @nickelsilver, the wear of the arbor-hole in the barrel-bridge isn't too bad.

The barrel / arbor also had some radial and axial wear, adding to the problem.

In an attempt to reduce the hole size of the barrel, using a stacking set, I may have made a mistake.

On the inside of the barrel there is a ring around the center. I was hoping that the ring was beefy enough to reduce the hole diameter with some careful taps, using 2x different sizes rounded stakes. But instead of reducing the holes size, it just became bigger.

My theory is that, even though the inner-ring may be beefy enough, the material surrounding the inner-ring, is not. The barrel-material wasn't strong enough to "support" the inner-ring and therefor, instead of "squashing" the internal of the ring a bit, I just expanded the whole ring.

Realizing my mistake, I used two flat punches to "squash" the inner-ring, but that goes, regarding the axial play, in the wrong way too.

I'm getting this suspicious feeling that I screwed up and may need to source a new or a 2nd hand barrel for a 861

Unless somebody has a brilliant idea what can be done?

(Perhaps somebody can help me out with a good replacement barrel (please PM me, preferably within EU))

Thanks for your help

 

 

 

Hard to tell but the barrel arbor hole looks deformed . I suspect that the round punches you used were too small, instead of pinching material in from the side to close up, it may have been more a case of punching a bigger hole through. With a thin piece of material like this, i personally just dome the outer of the barrel with a wide punch, sitting the barrel on the inside on a flat anvil. Just light taps and keep checking, you are usually only closing 10 -20 microns. Its always best to try out on something that doesn't matter , that way you iron out your technique. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Endeavor]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

it may have been more a case of punching a bigger hole

Yep

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

Yep

Expensive mistake Endeavor,  i really feel for you mate, on a positive note you wont make the same mistake again. I really think one of the best things anyone new to this hobby can do is to buy a big bunch of old parts to practice this sort of repair. It helps to outline where repairs can go wrong.

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I really think one of the best things anyone new to this hobby can do is to buy a big bunch of old parts to practice this sort of repair. It helps to outline where repairs can go wrong.

That's not the philosophy of this group the philosophy is to look at YouTube videos observe how simple and easy watch repair is and jump right in no skills required. In fact if you look at some of the YouTube videos actually say that they have limited skills and they don't have time to go to school etc. in their successfully make a YouTube videos and showing how to do repairs. So why practice we can just jump right in what's the worst that can happen?

One of the beautiful things of jumping right in with an absolute clueless attitude is you cannot grasp at all the possibilities of what the worst could be.

[Endeavor]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I really think one of the best things anyone new to this hobby can do is to buy a big bunch of old parts to practice this sort of repair. It helps to outline where repairs can go wrong.

Fully agree. Another stupid mistake I made is working on an Omega Speedmaster 861 chronograph as my first watch repair ever.

But, hopefully people can learn from my stupidity!

Undoubtfully, with all the watch repair challenges out there and people like me, there is much more to come ......

Edited December 27, 2023 by Endeavor

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

Fully agree. Another stupid mistake I made is working on an Omega Speedmaster 861 chronograph as my first watch repair ever.

But, hopefully people can learn from my stupidity!

Undoubtfully, with all the watch repair challenges out there and people like me, there is much more to come ......

Yes its not a great start fella, and there was no way you where going anywhere with a chrono, but dont beat yourself up about it. You only know what you know. Ive had some grand fluff ups and so has everyone else here. 

[RichardHarris123]

I'm confused, first watch repair but you're an advanced member? 

[rehajm]

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Yes its not a great start fella, and there was no way you where going anywhere with a chrono, but dont beat yourself up about it. You only know what you know. Ive had some grand fluff ups and so has everyone else here. 

This was a first watch? Yikes…

…here’s some good news- your problem is fixable. Set this one aside in a parts tray (invest in a parts tray) and when your skills have improved and maybe have time to watch and study a proficient watchmaker work on this specific movement and you’ve saved up for a new barrel plus shipping have another go…

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I'm confused, first watch repair but you're an advanced member? 

That threw me as well, Endeavor has been a forum member for 8 years. Maybe this damage was done a long time ago ?

[CYCLOPS]

the barrel can have a  bushing pressed in, a convex punch and flat base could be used to close the hole, round the hole with smooth broaches if too small, just some ideas that come to mind..... 

[Endeavor]

58 minutes ago, CYCLOPS said:

the barrel can have a  bushing pressed in

Yes, that could be option if you have the equipment / lathe.

58 minutes ago, CYCLOPS said:

a convex punch and flat base could be used to close the hole, round the hole with smooth broaches if too small

That's where it all went wrong ......

The good news is; I managed to find a NOS barrel (complete with new arbor and perhaps a new spring in it(?)) for a very good price, so hopefully the problem is solved

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Endeavor