Locking depth of pin pallets

[Neverenoughwatches]

Hey watch peeps, looking for some advice please regarding setting up the locking depth of pin pallets.  I'm tinkering with an AHS 43 again, the pins are not fully locking the escape teeth , letting half a dozen through at a time until a pin locks on a tooth. Just wondered if there is a general rule to follow, its not something thats visually easy to see the lock like a pallet stone. 

[RichardHarris123]

I didn't think the locking depth could be adjusted on a pin lever.  Since it's missing and then recatching, could it be worn escapement teeth? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

52 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I didn't think the locking depth could be adjusted on a pin lever.  Since it's missing and then recatching, could it be worn escapement teeth? 

Its possible the escape teeth could be worn, also worn pivots and bushes ( it a very cheap movement) for the lever and escape wheel might cause a mislock but the sideshake doesnt seem too bad. I've had the lever in and out over a dozen times trying to find the cause of some low amplitude. And the lever is a real pain to install as it has to be scooped in under a hole in the train bridge then a plate with the lever's pivot hole fitted over the hole in the bridge. Scooping the lever into the hole and avoiding catching the escape wheel is tricky so i may have bent the pins anyway. 

[rehajm]

de Carle goes into detail on adjusting pin pallets. Cliff Notes- cutting the pin pallet base and moving the pins…

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, rehajm said:

de Carle goes into detail on adjusting pin pallets. Cliff Notes- cutting the pin pallet base and moving the pins…

Just looking at de carle now, i need to determine if thats the problem first. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

could it be worn escapement teeth? 

you want to look very carefully at the pins themselves as they can have notches born into them. I don't know how we would tell if the escape wheel is worn but I'm sure that can happen. Or conceivably both the pins and the wheel can wear. Also make sure the pins for some reason are not loose.

Then as it's kind of a lever escapement does it have anything resembling banking pins and have they been modified although it's probably not that. Then if the pivots themselves of the holes are to big that would allow it to move that could be enough perhaps.

usually on watches like this or basically Timex watches there made to be very intolerant to manufacturing tolerances I don't know how closely the lever itself has to be adjusted versus a jeweled lever

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

you want to look very carefully at the pins themselves as they can have notches born into them. I don't know how we would tell if the escape wheel is worn but I'm sure that can happen. Or conceivably both the pins and the wheel can wear. Also make sure the pins for some reason are not loose.

Then as it's kind of a lever escapement does it have anything resembling banking pins and have they been modified although it's probably not that. Then if the pivots themselves of the holes are to big that would allow it to move that could be enough perhaps.

usually on watches like this or basically Timex watches there made to be very intolerant to manufacturing tolerances I don't know how closely the lever itself has to be adjusted versus a jeweled lever

 

 

Thanks John, this design has no pins for the lever arm to bank against, the banking happens within the escape teeth. There is a little wear at the pivot holes of the esc. wheel and lever which are brass bushes and a just a holed steel plate for the top of the lever, but nothing excessive.  Supposedly this rough design has lots of tolerance compared to a jewelled lever. No discernable wear to the escape teeth and but light scratching to the lever pins which I've polished out and seems to have improved the locking somewhat. So maybe the pins were catching the back of some teeth preventing a full lock to happen. I think its now worth turning my attention to polishing the locking faces of the escape teeth and fork horns to  hopefully increase the amplitude I've been chasing on it. I've also read somewhere that greasing the impulse pin is advisable. As regards to locking depth of the lever pins de carle suggests escape teeth dropping above the center line of the pins. I have my mornings work set out

[oldhippy]

Before you start playing around with the escapement, pin pallet escapements are  known to wear, so check everything such as pivots, pivot holes, the pins on the pallets, escape wheel teeth, even the pallets, do they engage with the balance correctly. These movements are poor and not worth spending money on.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

50 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Before you start playing around with the escapement, pin pallet escapements are  known to wear, so check everything such as pivots, pivot holes, the pins on the pallets, escape wheel teeth, even the pallets, do they engage with the balance correctly. These movements are poor and not worth spending money on.  

Its running with 185 amplitude after an hour of full wind down to around 140 after 12 hours dial up, all verticals are worse still. Adjustment would always be the last resort for me, some adjustments can't be reversed easily if at all. The pivots and pivot holes of the esc wheel and lever dont seem too bad, not that i could do much about them rebushing or jewelling them would be an interesting experiment for me though but unlikely it would ever work again . My plan is to polish the locking and impulse faces of the escape wheel and check the lever pins again closer for any marks remaining. I think thats about as far as i could go with it. I know most have very little value but I've always been a sucker for the underdog. The sort of person that would tune the hell out of a Ford Essy mk1 Mexico to get every hoof of horsepower from its pokey little 1600 engine, gearbox and driveshaft then put it against a Porsche Carrera in a standing quarter to watch it rattle itself to pieces trying to keep up , sometimes its just about the fun of finding out what something is capable of.

[rehajm]

Yes, part of the fun of doing this as a hobby and not profession is you may ignore the economics if you so choose. While you ignore the horological prospects of a pin pallet at your peril (I certainly have) better still is when the economics work in your favor, as pin pallets are the orphans of the watch world…

Edited October 22, 2023 by rehajm

[Neverenoughwatches]

40 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Yes, part of the fun of doing this as a hobby and not profession is you may ignore the economics if you so choose. While you ignore the horological prospects of a pin pallet at your peril (I certainly have) better still is when the economics work in your favor, as pin pallets are the orphans of the watch world…

I think this is where amateurs can excel and probably even learn more than some pros. Investing time and effort into the fine tuning and study of something cheap, something that left the factory with more work to be done, Its just not financially viable for a pro to entertain. We dont need to factor in time and motion, jeez ive been backwards and forwards, on and off with this fiend of frustration for nearly six months now. Its looks at me with its little sad face from the edge of the bench and says # please daddy can it be my turn again pwweease . 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Nucejoe]

Hi matey,

 There are 14 variant calibers to AHS43, parts of the base caliber interchange between all variants of the same frequency. 

  If it came down to adjusting pins, do not attempt bending the pins as they break easy,  each pin is revitted to an arm of the fork, try twisting the arm instead, thats risky though as you might change the geomerty of the fork thus its functioning, you ought to secure the arm in stout tweezers then twist the free end of the arm to get the pin adjusted.

This doesn't just sound crazy, it is crazy. 

 Richard makes sense, if pins miss only some teeth of the escape wheel, its either the wheel thats warped/ worn teeth/ excessive side shake. 

Rgds

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

35 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi matey,

 There are 14 variant calibers to AHS43, parts of the base caliber interchange between all variants of the same frequency. 

  If it came down to adjusting pins, do not attempt bending the pins as they break easy,  each pin is revitted to an arm of the fork, try twisting the arm instead, thats risky though as you might change the geomerty of the fork thus its functioning, you ought to secure the arm in stout tweezers then twist the free end of the arm to get the pin adjusted.

This doesn't just sound crazy, it is crazy. 

 Richard makes sense, if pins miss only some teeth of the escape wheel, its either the wheel thats warped/ worn teeth/ excessive side shake. 

Rgds

 

Hey Joe, thanks for the info, i also thought bending the pins themselves not a great idea. The lever has a fair amount of endshake and can only be adjusted at the bottom end so the lock would change depending on the movement's position. De carle also suggests bending the arms and if they are too wide making a slot in the arms and tapping them closer together.  I dont fancy that approach, it might not be reversible. The lock issue seems to be  solved for now, the pins were a little scratched up. Its just a case of upping the amplitude, I'm not ready to give up on the little fella yet, hes been through so much

[Nucejoe]

Hi,  I wonder if there is a special tool for safely bending the arms, how does De Carle suggest bending them? 

 

 

 

[rehajm]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

This doesn't just sound crazy, it is crazy. 

Yes but here’s the image in Practical Watch Repairing  next to the  image Neverenoughwatches posted…

…so not only were there crazies out there doing it they had a tool for it…

…and here’s the technique with relief cuts and bending. I have seen movements where this procedure had been done. Perhaps not a coincidence they were parts movements…

Edited October 22, 2023 by rehajm

[Neverenoughwatches]

51 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Yes but here’s the image in Practical Watch Repairing  next to the  image Neverenoughwatches posted…

…so not only were there crazies out there doing it they had a tool for it…

…and here’s the technique with relief cuts and bending. I have seen movements where this procedure had been done. Perhaps not a coincidence they were parts movements…

There are even crazier acts of part mutilation in his book . These old boys had nerves of steel.

[rehajm]

Its running with 185 amplitude after an hour of full wind down to around 140 after 12 hours dial up

…if you’re all in on these pins for fun not profit may I suggest this blue lube from Doktor Tillwich that Ranfft recommended in a forum post…

…he claimed an improvement of twenty degrees and I will attest. A couple drops on the pins and let it run down. I was doing Bradley Mickeys and Minnies for the kiddies what had BFG pins and it did the trick.

Our always helpful Jon tells of oiling the metal roller, too- I believe a drop on some paper transferred to a flattened pegwood then dabbed to the roller. lube the pallet pivots if you want, too

Edited October 22, 2023 by rehajm

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, rehajm said:

Its running with 185 amplitude after an hour of full wind down to around 140 after 12 hours dial up

…if you’re all in on these pins for fun not profit may I suggest this blue lube from Doktor Tillwich that Ranfft recommended in a forum post…

…he claimed an improvement of twenty degrees and I will attest. A couple drops on the pins and let it run down. I was doing Bradley Mickeys and Minnies for the kiddies what had BFG pins and it did the trick.

Our always helpful Jon tells of oiling the metal roller, too- I believe a drop on some paper transferred to a flattened pegwood then dabbed to the roller. lube the pallet pivots if you want, too

I've seen that oil mentioned a few times for the lever pins. I settled for using 9020 something thin but not so that it runs all over the escape wheel. Thinking about the guideline of if it slides use a grease that might be a better option also been looking at dry lubrication antifriction paints by Molykote these work cleaner than oils and greases.

[nevenbekriev]

Hi again here,

Haven't You work on alarm clocks?

There is a common way to increase the locking, You just have to bend a little the 'semiislad' on which the downside bearing of the lever is towards the wheel. That is the reason for them to be made this way - to alow adjustment. But the free play in the bearings is not good at all and if needed, must be rectified.

[oldhippy]

Locking problems are caused by wear bending things will only cause problems it is not recommended. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Locking problems are caused by wear bending things will only cause problems it is not recommended. 

De carle's book has a range of tools for bending and stretching, its like a bloody keepfit manual .

56 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Hi again here,

Haven't You work on alarm clocks?

There is a common way to increase the locking, You just have to bend a little the 'semiislad' on which the downside bearing of the lever is towards the wheel. That is the reason for them to be made this way - to alow adjustment. But the free play in the bearings is not good at all and if needed, must be rectified.

I have tinkered with only one alarm clock . I dont know what the semislad is ? 

[oldhippy]

I laugh at some of the crap that is in that book. I don't think I have needed that book since I serving my apprenticeship and I didn't find it much help then. My master showed me all that I needed to know.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

I laugh at some of the crap that is in that book. I don't think I have needed that book since I serving my apprenticeship and I didn't find it much help then. My master showed me all that I needed to know.  

 I'm glad i only paid a fiver for it then ! ( wait for it,  OH is about to say # thats a fiver too much # ) OH i can read you like a book

[nevenbekriev]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I have tinkered with only one alarm clock . I dont know what the semislad is ? 

Semi island, peninsula. I have missed the 'n'...

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Semi island, peninsula. I have missed the 'n'...

twisting the lever bearing towards the escape wheel seems like a good way to snap the top pivot or at the very least bind up the lever pivots. The one I'm working on doesn't have this island cut out in the main plate.