Shock system: A lute and a banjo left the Dew Drop Inn & got a room at Super 8...

[TKM3RD]

Hello! Happy horology everyone.

I have worked on a number of movements now: really old, old, new, Chinese, etc., but never came across the shock system shown below. It sorta looks like the offspring of a banjo and a lute. I have also been looking high and low for a regulator as I broke off the pin.

Then I broke off the hairspring stud while removing the balance complet for safe keeping. DOH! There was a fair bit of 'extra' hairspring after the stud, so I may be able to make do with a repair - touchy stuff that.

So, the questions:

1. What type of shock absorber system is this called? That is really my burning question.
2. Any thoughts on where to obtain the correct regulator, or a donor movement? I've looked high and low.

I have a beautiful tank style Benrus dial and case to fit the movement if I can get it running.

Best regards - Tom

 

 

[Geotex]

That configuration is commonly found on Benrus watches using the ETA 930 as the base movement, as seen in the Ranfft database for movements such as the BB4 and CE13:

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Benrus_BB4

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Benrus_CE13

If you can verify the specific base movement, a donor movement should be cheap.  Or maybe you'll find a working spare movement and turn this one into a future donor!

 

[TKM3RD]

1 hour ago, Geotex said:

That configuration is commonly found on Benrus watches using the ETA 930 as the base movement, as seen in the Ranfft database for movements such as the BB4 and CE13:

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Benrus_BB4

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Benrus_CE13

If you can verify the specific base movement, a donor movement should be cheap.  Or maybe you'll find a working spare movement and turn this one into a future donor!

 

Thank you, I seriously appreciate the reply!

I am still a little confused by "base movement" though. It is a Benrus and is marked FHF 175, should I be looking for an ETA 930?

Also, just for trivia night, is there a specific name for the configuration?

~~Tom

[RichardHarris123]

Look at this, figure 3.

Edited October 13, 2023 by RichardHarris123

[TKM3RD]

2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Look at this, figure 3.

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, I have looked at that numerous times prior to asking my questions; I am not quite sure what you are getting at.

Do you know what that type of shock system is called? It's not incabloc, it's not dinashock, it's not a KIF system, or Monroe*, so what is it called? Inquiring minds want to know!

*- I see now you're from across the pond; Monroe was/is a US chain which installed shocks for cars. Just a poor attempt at humor.

Edited October 13, 2023 by TKM3RD
Clarification

[dadistic]

Perhaps Phenix Vibrochoc?

Shock Springs.pdf

[TKM3RD]

1 hour ago, dadistic said:

Perhaps Phenix Vibrochoc?

Shock Springs.pdf 1.73 MB · 0 downloads

Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it!

Oooo, that's close, but the part over the jewel is a complete circle, and the end screws down.

What is this tome of knowledge you possess? Where may I be enlightened?

8 hours ago, Geotex said:

That configuration is commonly found on Benrus watches using the ETA 930 as the base movement, as seen in the Ranfft database for movements such as the BB4 and CE13:

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Benrus_BB4

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Benrus_CE13

If you can verify the specific base movement, a donor movement should be cheap.  Or maybe you'll find a working spare movement and turn this one into a future donor!

 

I found a donor searching for Benrus AR1, much to my surprise!

[dadistic]

Bestfit Encyclopedia of watch material. That page was posted here on the forum some time ago. I believe there is a pdf copy on the site somewhere, too. Search around a bit and see what pops up.

 

Cheers!

[RichardHarris123]

It was patented by Benrus. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 10/12/2023 at 10:17 PM, TKM3RD said:

Hello! Happy horology everyone.

I have worked on a number of movements now: really old, old, new, Chinese, etc., but never came across the shock system shown below. It sorta looks like the offspring of a banjo and a lute. I have also been looking high and low for a regulator as I broke off the pin.

Then I broke off the hairspring stud while removing the balance complet for safe keeping. DOH! There was a fair bit of 'extra' hairspring after the stud, so I may be able to make do with a repair - touchy stuff that.

So, the questions:

1. What type of shock absorber system is this called? That is really my burning question.
2. Any thoughts on where to obtain the correct regulator, or a donor movement? I've looked high and low.

I have a beautiful tank style Benrus dial and case to fit the movement if I can get it running.

Best regards - Tom

 

 

Are you sure this is a shock spring ? Another way of holding a fixed cap jewel ?

On 10/12/2023 at 10:17 PM, TKM3RD said:

Hello! Happy horology everyone.

I have worked on a number of movements now: really old, old, new, Chinese, etc., but never came across the shock system shown below. It sorta looks like the offspring of a banjo and a lute. I have also been looking high and low for a regulator as I broke off the pin.

Then I broke off the hairspring stud while removing the balance complet for safe keeping. DOH! There was a fair bit of 'extra' hairspring after the stud, so I may be able to make do with a repair - touchy stuff that.

So, the questions:

1. What type of shock absorber system is this called? That is really my burning question.
2. Any thoughts on where to obtain the correct regulator, or a donor movement? I've looked high and low.

I have a beautiful tank style Benrus dial and case to fit the movement if I can get it running.

Best regards - Tom

 

 

Is the spring missing ?

[TKM3RD]

On 10/14/2023 at 1:10 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are you sure this is a shock spring ? Another way of holding a fixed cap jewel ?

Is the spring missing ?

Yes. I am fairly sure, although it appears to multitask and also be a way to secure the cap jewel - look closely at the photos and see what you think. I could be totally wrong. I've only been monkeying with movements for about a year, and what I don't know could fill a book. 

The new old movement arrived and seems to be a decent one. After many searches, I hit on AR1 movement. Funny things, watches and the interwebs. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, TKM3RD said:

Yes. I am fairly sure, although it appears to multitask and also be a way to secure the cap jewel - look closely at the photos and see what you think. I could be totally wrong. I've only been monkeying with movements for about a year, and what I don't know could fill a book. 

The new old movement arrived and seems to be a decent one. After many searches, I hit on AR1 movement. Funny things, watches and the interwebs. 

The part you have labelled as a shock spring looks too solid with no flex to it, Richard's example shows clearly a spring shape design. I've also seen others more like yours but with flexible prongs surrounds its internal diameter. What you have suggests that it just clamps down the jewel plate that the jewel is set into. What is on the otherside of it ?

[TKM3RD]

17 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The part you have labelled as a shock spring looks too solid with no flex to it, Richard's example shows clearly a spring shape design. I've also seen others more like yours but with flexible prongs surrounds its internal diameter. What you have suggests that it just clamps down the jewel plate that the jewel is set into. What is on the otherside of it ?

What I have is exactly what Richard and Mr. Marchand show in the patent. Thank you for your input, it's appreciated.

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, TKM3RD said:

What I have is exactly what Richard and Mr. Marchand show in the patent. Thank you for your input, it's appreciated.

Maybe I'm missing something but they don't look the same. Yours is solid richard's example has a clear spring design at it's center

[Geotex]

Tom, the configuration found in your watch is listed in the product literature as the "Benrus Special" shock absorber, a very early design. Notice that there is a single screw on the end of a thin extended arm holding the jewel in place, so in effect that whole part is the spring. Benrus refined that type of shock mounting in the next generation, which was called the "Endurable" shock mounting. Similar design, but they added two posts on opposite sides of the screw so that sideways motion was eliminated. (I'm sure that was needed, because when I look over old movements with the "Special" design the cap jewel is often misaligned to the side...) The Endurable also had cutouts around the jewel to add more flexibility, and that appears to be the product that actually arose from the patent Richard provided above, although the posts have been rotated 90 degrees from the patent diagram.  See the Benrus technical catalog listing of their shock systems and part of the Endurable service document below. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Geotex said:

Tom, the configuration found in your watch is listed in the product literature as the "Benrus Special" shock absorber, a very early design. Notice that there is a single screw on the end of a thin extended arm holding the jewel in place, so in effect that whole part is the spring. Benrus refined that type of shock mounting in the next generation, which was called the "Endurable" shock mounting. Similar design, but they added two posts on opposite sides of the screw so that sideways motion was eliminated. (I'm sure that was needed, because when I look over old movements with the "Special" design the cap jewel is often misaligned to the side...) The Endurable also had cutouts around the jewel to add more flexibility, and that appears to be the product that actually arose from the patent Richard provided above, although the posts have been rotated 90 degrees from the patent diagram.  See the Benrus technical catalog listing of their shock systems and part of the Endurable service document below. 

Thanks Geotex, that clears it  up wonderfully .

[TKM3RD]

Thank you, everyone, for the feedback and wonderful bit of history and learning! This is such a fascinating hobby, albeit a complex one. It's so much appreciated to have such help here.

Thank you all again! Until next time, best regards,

~~Tom

[nevenbekriev]

There is an elephant in the room here... OK, what is the shock absorber system on the other side, under dial then???

[Geotex]

Well, it was admittedly an imperfect system. Initially there was just a standard cap jewel on the dial side of the balance, but later versions used a cutout cap setting that potentially allowed some flexibility on that side as well. See the two version in the photo.