Advice regarding springs - wall/box clock. Haller?

[Guest]

Hello all,

I’ve signed up hoping someone may be able to offer some advice regarding a wall/box clock that I’ve been restoring.
Please forgive me if my terminology isn’t quite right - I’m googling as I go.

The movement, from what I’ve seen whilst researching repairs, *may* be Haller, or a close copy, but it has no markings to indicate that.

The only markings I see are on the outside of the rear movement plate.
250473 along the bottom and 43cm/104.

The clock has two chime trains - One for Westminster melody and one for sounding the hour.

The issue is that while time runs beautifully, without any problem at all, both chime trains seems slow.
Wound to maximum they are passable, barely, but when comparing to youtube videos of, what appear to be, similar clocks, it’s apparent that mine run at nowhere near the same pace.

After a few days pass from fully wound, or if you simply let out a few turns of the spring, the speed of the chime really starts to suffer.
You don’t have to let out much tension before it simply wont chime without intervention.
In short, you’d really have to be winding the chime springs to max every day or every second day.

 

I did plenty of reading before working on this so under advice from this forum and others I let down all the springs and assessed the movement of pivots and determined that it needed four bushes.
Three in the melody train and one in the hour train.

Counting up from, and not including, the springs this is what I’ve bushed.
Melody train - Arbor 1 face side. Arbor 3, front and rear.
Hour chime train - Arbor 1 rear.

 

Of course while it was dismantled I carefully polished all pivots with 0000 wire wool and a metal polishing compound,
and thoroughly washed (scrubbed) everything in hot soapy water, thoroughly rinsed and dried, and, after reassembly,
carefully lubricated where appropriate with a suitable clock oil.

While this is my first time working on a clock movement I do feel that movement under spring tension does feel easier now and that I’ve done a good job but the chimes are barely faster.

I know they are, technically, faster because the regulating butterfly on the melody chain opens up slightly where it didn’t before,
and I had cleaned and lubricated it prior to this overhaul so it's a useful comparison,
but when simply listening to the chime any difference is imperceptible.

I’m sure the work I’ve done will be beneficial to the clock in the long term and I’m glad I did it, but I’m led back to my original thought,
that perhaps the springs have lost strength or were just underpowered from new.

I’m not enamoured by the idea of buying, or making, unwinding apparatus to allow me to clean and lubricate the springs.
Honestly, given my description, and the fact that the springs look very clean and don’t seem to bind during wind/unwind,
would you think that cleaning and lubricating the springs is likely to give this clock the new lease of life I’m looking for,
or is it more likely it needs the springs replaced?

I can attach a recording of the chimes if needed - For loose reference the hourly strike is approx one strike per three seconds under maximum winding,
where I'm hearing others at more like one strike per two seconds.

Many thanks in advance for any thoughts.

 

[oldhippy]

If it is that slow in chiming and striking and all the pivots and holes are sorted as you say. I would replace the springs, springs get tired just like the rest of us. 

[Guest]

I know that feeling.
Thanks for the reply. That's somewhat reassuring.

So, I suppose that opens up a whole string of questions.
Is this going to require removal of the springs, from their barrels, to be replaced with new parts, or would they be bought as a complete unit - spring in barrel?
I've no idea how I would go about obtaining specs for the springs, particularly with the maker being unknown.

The only identifying mark I could find out of the three spring barrels is a 'D' stamped into the strike barrel.

[watchweasol]

Hi. What’s the clocks history. Was this fault apparent before you dismantled it and re bushed it.  Did you check the freedom of the wheels when they were bushed by running the two wheels together to check for correct depthing  and whether thy had a bind. Are the. Correct barrels in the correct places.  as mentioned by OH. You will need to remove the springs, if they have been wound up and left for some time they may be set or tired to check there is no other way other than remove them. It can be done by hand but unless you are familiar with the practise NOT recommended. So that leaves you with the alternative of purchasing or making a spring removal tool. Making one is not rocket science as long as it’s used for domestic mantle clocks NOT the large Fusee clocks and grandfather clocks which have powerful springs.

[oldhippy]

Clean out the barrels when you have removed the old springs, you can pull them out with a good pair of pliers. 

 The springs will come with strong wire around them. You can drop them into the barrels then remove the springs, put them in so the end of the spring is near to the hook on inside the barrel. A pair of thick gloves and the winding key, put the arbor in and make sure it hooks on to the spring, with the key and your gloves on hold the barrel and wind the spring up, it will slip onto the hook in side keep winding until the spring is in the barrel. 

[Guest]

Hi watchweasol,
I can be reasonably sure it was hanging and running for about 40 years, maybe more, and has been in storage probably for about 30 years.
It came into my possession recently and, yes, it chimed quite slowly when I got it.
That is the reason I stripped, cleaned and bushed, rather than the other way around.

I did check the freedom of movement after carrying out my work, deliberately applying pressure with the same directional force that would be applied by the spring.

To both watchweasol and oldhippy, either way it sounds like these springs have to come out, then, so I went ahead and made myself a winding tool.
I had assumed they were more complicated that they are but after watching a few tutorial videos I was able to knock one together this evening.

I suppose I'll unwind, clean, lubricate and refit - for the experience if nothing else,
but if it comes to replacement would either of you have any thoughts as to the specs or, indeed, the maker of this movement?

Many thanks, again, for the replies and information.
 

[oldhippy]

When it come to replacing clock springs measure in side the barrel for height up to where you see the line for the barrel cap and the inside circumference of the barrel, that is all you need, don't bother about the strength.  With no id on the movement it will be English or German I always tend to think German.  

[watchweasol]

Hi my thoughts are with OH. Most likely of German origin,   OHs advice holds good just follow that and you will be ok.

Whilst you have it in bits for the springs check the fly, if it has moving vanes make sure they are free.

[Guest]

Hi folks,
Just a quick update to say my winder worked well and I have removed one of the springs from its barrel - The strike spring.

It's got a bluish coating and relaxed to a much smaller size than I expected.
Barely 2X the barrel diameter.

As I said in the last post I intended to give it a good clean and lubricate and refit, for the experience if nothing else,
but I'm finding it's really rather difficult to straighten out for cleaning.

I was able to pull the outer 5 coils fairly straight but anything beyond that is pretty tough work, having to work it out with both hands inch by inch.
Of course when I say 'straighten' I mean just enough to comfortably get a scotchbrite pad in there.

Does this go some way to confirming the idea that it just needs new springs, in your opinion?

[oldhippy]

You should never straighten out springs. Clean them in petrol with a good strong brush with long bristles, then wipe in a clean cloth. A simple way of judging the correct length of spring for the barrel is 1 third for spring, 1 third for arbor and one third of distance between arbor and spring.