Identification of jewel setting

[ViktorH]

Hi all,

The pictures show a jewel setting (with damaged jewel) from one of my American pocket watches.

I’m looking to replace the jewel, but I’m a bit unsure of what kind of setting this is.  Is it a normal friction setting, like the ones found in modern Swiss watches?

Any input would be much appreciated.

[Galilea]

If you give me the serial number and maker, I can tell you the setting type. You may even be able to tell yourself by inputting that data at pocketwatchdatabase.com, I don't recall if that info  is  available as public or a member function. I'm happy to look for you.

[ViktorH]

That sounds great.

Maker: Burlington (Elgin)

Serial number: 2702748

It is the lower jewel (mainplate) for the third wheel. I can find a page with the part number (1340), that also says the setting is ”brass”. That doesn’t tell me very much, unfortunately.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, ViktorH said:

Hi all,

The pictures show a jewel setting (with damaged jewel) from one of my American pocket watches.

I’m looking to replace the jewel, but I’m a bit unsure of what kind of setting this is.  Is it a normal friction setting, like the ones found in modern Swiss watches?

Any input would be much appreciated.

I'm no expert on pocket watches but look at this wavy edge how it seems to fold over the jewel. Is what is known as a rubbed in jewel, as with replacing all jewels they need special tools. Rubbing in a jewel is a more specialised task requiring hand tools. JohnR725 can give you much more detail with this

[ViktorH]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm no expert on pocket watches but look at this wavy edge how it seems to fold over the jewel. Is what is known as a rubbed in jewel, as with replacing all jewels they need special tools. Rubbing in a jewel is a more specialised task requiring hand tools. JohnR725 can give you much more detail with this

Thanks. The jewel is flat on that side though. Not typical for rub-in? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, ViktorH said:

Thanks. The jewel is flat on that side though. Not typical for rub-in? 

How do you mean flat on that side ? How does that affect the mounting of the jewel ? If the jewel is rubbed in you will be able to distinguish it from a friction jewel relatively easy. Look at the edge again, does it look to fold over ?

Edited August 3, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[ViktorH]

38 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

How do you mean flat on that side ? How does that affect the mounting of the jewel ? If the jewel is rubbed in you will be able to distinguish it from a friction jewel relatively easy. Look at the edge again, does it look to fold over ?

Looking at it from different angles, the edge does not look to be folded over, except maybe on a couple of small spots.

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, ViktorH said:

Looking at it from different angles, the edge does not look to be folded over, except maybe on a couple of small spots.

If hou can see it folded over in places then it more than likely is rubbed in. Have you replaced a friction jewel before ?

[ViktorH]

41 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If hou can see it folded over in places then it more than likely is rubbed in. Have you replaced a friction jewel before ?

Yes, I have replaced and adjusted friction settings a couple of times, on a bit more modern Swiss watches.

41 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If hou can see it folded over in places then it more than likely is rubbed in. Have you replaced a friction jewel before ?

Edit:

I decided to push it out with my Swiss jewelling tool. Indeed it was ”rubbed in”. It wasn’t really obvious to my untrained eye before I pushed it out.

Did any of the old American pocket watches use modern friction settings?

Edited August 3, 2023 by ViktorH

[Neverenoughwatches]

31 minutes ago, ViktorH said:

Looking at it from different angles, the edge does not look to be folded over, except maybe on a couple of small spots.

I have very little experience with rub-in settings, but the ones I’ve seen has been fold over at the convex side of the jewel.

Yes, I have replaced and adjusted friction settings a couple of times, on a bit more modern Swiss watches.

Hmm ok you've replaced friction jewels and you have a good understanding of how a friction jewel looks and fits into plate, bridge etc. they are pretty much the same throughout ? So by deduction does this in any way suggest that it could be a friction jewel or could it be something different ? You know the answer to that I'm sure. So your attention is now turned to something different, some kind of rubbed in jewel maybe ? to which there are more than likely quite a few designs, many of which you will not have seen. Namely this type ? The watch is how old ?  Could the jewel be in the wrong way perhaps or not the original.  It does actually look like it has never been changed. My point being just because its not typical and you haven't seen that type , doesn't mean it shouldn't be what it actually is. I take nothing for granted any more and i bet there are guys on here with 30 + years of experience that dont either. That is a massive part of watch repair, embrace it my friend    .

[Galilea]

1 hour ago, ViktorH said:

That sounds great.

Maker: Burlington (Elgin)

Serial number: 2702748

It is the lower jewel (mainplate) for the third wheel. I can find a page with the part number (1340), that also says the setting is ”brass”. That doesn’t tell me very much, unfortunately.

Elgin did not make the Burlington watch, Illinois did, and sorry, i did not see you had provided the info. If I can find out, i will,

[Neverenoughwatches]

50 minutes ago, ViktorH said:

Yes, I have replaced and adjusted friction settings a couple of times, on a bit more modern Swiss watches.

Edit:

I decided to push it out with my Swiss jewelling tool. Indeed it was ”rubbed in”. It wasn’t really obvious to my untrained eye before I pushed it out.

Did any of the old American pocket watches use modern friction settings?

Never mind, it would have been a bugger for you replace anyway. Shame i didn't stop you in time, i was too busy waffling sorry. You've learned something which is always a bonus. JohnR725 may be able to help you to recover the situation as its way beyond me .

4 minutes ago, Galilea said:

Elgin did not make the Burlington watch, Illinois did, and sorry, i did not see you had provided the info. If I can find out, i will,

Bit late sweetie, we thought it was all over , it is now. 4-2

[ViktorH]

 

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Never mind, it would have been a bugger for you replace anyway. Shame i didn't stop you in time, i was too busy waffling sorry. You've learned something which is always a bonus. JohnR725 may be able to help you to recover the situation as its way beyond me .

The rim seem to be intact, so I am hoping I can close it with one of the special tool, if I get one.

If not, the blame is definitely on me.

[Galilea]

2 hours ago, ViktorH said:

That sounds great.

Maker: Burlington (Elgin)

Serial number: 2702748

It is the lower jewel (mainplate) for the third wheel. I can find a page with the part number (1340), that also says the setting is ”brass”. That doesn’t tell me very much, unfortunately.

Hey are you sure you don't have a swiss fake there>? That s/n isn't holding water either way, I sure would like to see a pic of the entire movement

[ViktorH]

1 minute ago, Galilea said:

Hey are you sure you don't have a swiss fake there>? That s/n isn't holding water either way, I sure would like to see a pic of the entire movement

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, ViktorH said:

 

The rim seem to be intact, so I am hoping I can close it with one of the special tool, if I get one.

If not, the blame is definitely on me.

You might be lucky , i hope so . But there are 2 sides i think. Finding the correct jewel size i very much hope in your favour. Like i said JohnR725 is the man for you . 

[Galilea]

Yes, that is a bona fide Illinois Watch co grade 274 model 2, let me see what I can scare up

[Neverenoughwatches]

Just now, Galilea said:

Yes, that is a bona fide Illinois Watch co grade 274 model 2, let me see what I can scare up

There she goes our very own Wonder Woman to the rescue, probably scrabbling around her huge stock pile. Need a leg up sweetie

[Galilea]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

There she goes our very own Wonder Woman to the rescue, probably scrabbling around her huge stock pile. Need a leg up sweetie

Well, since you offered, will you kindly see if you can find a house under my watch pile, and if yes, then grab a walkie talkie and a st. bernard, and I will direct you to what this man needs from there.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, Galilea said:

Well, since you offered, will you kindly see if you can find a house under my watch pile, and if yes, then grab a walkie talkie and a st. bernard, and I will direct you to what this man needs from there.

I have a 16 foot ladder, I'll bring that as well. 

[Galilea]

Just now, Neverenoughwatches said:

I have a 16 foot ladder, I'll bring that as well. 

Really!!??! OK, and you might need a ladder as well.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, Galilea said:

Really!!??! OK, and you might need a ladder as well.

I will I'll bring both

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, ViktorH said:

It is the lower jewel (mainplate) for the third wheel. I can find a page with the part number (1340), that also says the setting is ”brass”. That doesn’t tell me very much, unfortunately.

the parts list tells us the same thing.  In other words the setting should entirely push out with the jewel.

so basically you're not going to get a replacement jewel you're either going to have to manufacture something or work with what you have.

[ViktorH]

19 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

the parts list tells us the same thing.  In other words the setting should entirely push out with the jewel.

so basically you're not going to get a replacement jewel you're either going to have to manufacture something or work with what you have.

OK, I see. Many thanks for the clear answer!

[CYCLOPS]

looks like a 12size Burlington, they where a mail order watch made by Illinois Watch Co., most of the jewels are in what's called a "jewel setting", a bit like the balance jewels, they are normally pressed in/out of the main plate [jewel and brass setting] I believe, you might have to find a donor watch, easily done on Ebay or another member.