Another tiny one: 1940 Longines 4LL

[ManSkirtBrew]

This is a lovely little watch that my mom has, and asked if I'd want to service it. Sure thing!

I wrote away to Longines, and they sent me back a little information on the watch:

Quote

Originally, the serial number 5'926'001 identifies a Longines mechanical manually wound movement, caliber 4LL. It was invoiced on 12.4.1940 to the company Longines Wittnauer Co., which was at that time our agent for the USA.

Neat!

I'm still working on a decent camera for my microscope, but in the meantime here are some disassembly photos from my cell.

[Aroxx]

Nice! I recently came into a whole bunch of these tiny ladies watch movements. Some runners and a lot not running. Unfortunately, they are quite small for a complete beginner such as myself but eventually I’ll try to service some. I have one Longines, a bunch of nice Bulovas, and a couple of Hamiltons. These small movements are pretty impressive. 

[JohnR725]

it looks like you could use a new mainspring that one looks a little bit set then I noticed in your disassembly you took the main plate off before the pallet fork bridge?

[ManSkirtBrew]

7 hours ago, Aroxx said:

they are quite small for a complete beginner such as myself

They are absurdly small, and I honestly wouldn't even attempt them without a microscope. Other than the size, though, they're no more complicated than any other watch you'll work on.

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

it looks like you could use a new mainspring that one looks a little bit set then I noticed in your disassembly you took the main plate off before the pallet fork bridge?

Definitely looking at replacing the mainspring. It's carbon steel and has most likely been in there for 80+ years.

By "main plate" do you mean the train wheel bridge? But yes, I took the pallet bridge and fork off last. It just seemed like a logical order to take things apart based on how the movement was laid out.

[HectorLooi]

The pallet bridge should be removed before the main plate. Sometimes there can be some residual power left or we may forget to let down power from the mainspring, there would be less damage to the train wheels doing it in this sequence.

Yes, ladies movements are painfully small. The main bridge screws are the size of pallet bridge screws. And anyone who has wound a ladies watch mainspring by hand can tell you how painful that is.

My mentor made me work on ladies movements to make me comfortable working with small parts. Great training. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

took the pallet bridge and fork off last. It just seemed like a logical order to take things apart based on how the movement was laid out.

 

4 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

The pallet bridge should be removed before the main plate

the reason I pointed this out or asked was I've seen typically on YouTube where watches are disassembled in a specific order and reassembled sort of in that same order. so based on YouTube balance wheel comes out. Entire watch is disassembled with the very last thing being the pallet fork and its bridge. This means that when reassembly occurs that's the very first part you put in that's why I asked.

As correctly quoted above the pallet fork bridge and pallet fork can come out right after the balance wheel. This way if you forgot to take the power off you can be surprised with no major destruction hopefully but it also allows you to look at the gear train see how it spins before you disassemble it. When you reassembling the pallet fork is one of the last things to go in its a lot easier to put the train together without the pallet fork their. plus how can you check for backspin if the pallet fork is the first thing to go in?

 

 

 

[Aroxx]

Figured I’d share my baby Longines from the running pile. Really enjoying this new 10x loupe. All of my new tools just showed up yesterday. 

[ManSkirtBrew]

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

This way if you forgot to take the power off you can be surprised with no major destruction

That all makes sense. Although here, since I already took off the click and ratchet wheel, I would have found out a lot sooner. In my mind, taking off the click and ratchet wheel first insures that there's no power down to the fork so I can't be surprised.

But I'm no professional, so I'm always ready to learn.

 

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

plus how can you check for backspin if the pallet fork is the first thing to go in?

Definitely agree. The pallet is always the last thing I put in before the balance. I very seldom reassemble in the reverse order I disassemble.

As you say, how else would I check for a free-spinning train?

[ManSkirtBrew]

All back together and it's running strong, but the timegrapher readout is...interesting. I double checked it against my phone app, and it agrees that things are weird.

 

Of course I forgot to take a reading before disassembly AGAIN, but some day I'll learn.

I don't see any coils touching in the hairspring. Where else would you be looking to diagnose that?

It sure cleaned up nice, tho. Here's a slo-mo video of it running. Sorry again, best I could do with the cell phone camera.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

weird

not weird it looks classic

3 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Of course I forgot to take a reading before disassembly AGAIN, but some day I'll learn.

one of the reasons for before and after is to see if you've actually improved things and is not quite there yet the improved state

I actually know I've seen that before normally in my life because the way I was taught in school I would've never seen anything like this ever but when is doing a timing machine comparison I found something similar although yours looks way more spectacular? It also looks like really two things are going on your getting some amplitude fluctuations. This is where when the lines separating come together that could be an amplitude fluctuation and the other looks classic for something else

okay let's look at this image does it look similar?

yes I know it's grossly out of beat the watch desperately needs to be serviced. But it worked really perfect for doing a timing machine comparison showing how well the Chinese 1000 compared to the witschi.

Then look at this image I wonder what I did?

then there's another thing that will produce the same thing which would be uneven power like if you had a bent wheel or something you can get a sine wave effect from that but classically the sine wave effect is caused by magnetism that's what the images are before because when I did the timing machine comparison the person who loaned me as timing machine gave me his watches because he was puzzled by the readings and I didn't do anything to change them and did them before exactly is found and then did things like remove the magnetism and look a much better it looks if you've already done that then it's probably uneven power and we can try something else in the software and see if we can figure it out but it's probably this. But notice how use the word probably because in the next damage it explains like if it's the escape wheel it's a set pattern and in the case of this watch it was very set as to what was going on yours looks more than one during and wondering is also uneven power conceivably sorry timing machine diagnostics is not always crystal-clear which is why make jokes about reading tea leaves or looking at a crystal ball it subject to interpretation and you have to understand the condition of a watch

oh and yes notice how it does talk about the pivots that's backed uneven power again

then because he of timing software with more features than the Chinese timing machine you could try doing what set the link below.long term the testing now the problem is I'm used to looking at this at the witschi at work so I understand exactly what I'm seeing their I haven't played enough with the software to see how this compares if you have gear train power fluctuations it will show up here although you should demagnetized the watch first and see if that helps as that would be the easiest and fastest thing to do. Then try doing this and seeing what happens

http://www.watchoscope.com/manual.html#longterm

also what has looking at the sample of the link above it looks like about eight minutes they are probably try a 10 minute run C Outlook see if we can see anything all gear trains will have random fluctuations is when you start to see patterns then that will point to specific problems.

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

Once again, I learned something today thanks to @JohnR725.

I had demagnetized before timing, but I left it on the movement holder. Taking the movement and placing it directly on my Elma Antimag yielded much different results.

I wonder if having it at a distance from the surface of the demagnetizer actually induced magnetism in the movement.

Now this is a service I can be happy about. And this is with the original mainspring, no less.

[Waggy]

Great results, I'm now looking at the elma demag! I am currently using a Chinese knock off.

I recently did a longines 410, and indeed working on such small movements is difficult until you get used to it. The upside is that the next men's watch seems huge in comparison and so much easier to work on .

Additionally, the price of women's watches is only a fraction of the equivalent male watch, probably due to a lot of people not wanting to service them??

I may plan to work on these small movements say 1 in 5 as I think it will develop my skills and keep them sharp,also I get to work on quality movements for a fraction of the cost. Finally, it may keep me in Mrs W's good graces!

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

I had demagnetized before timing, but I left it on the movement holder. Taking the movement and placing it directly on my Elma Antimag yielded much different results.

I wonder if having it at a distance from the surface of the demagnetizer actually induced magnetism in the movement.

if you look at how the machine works I don't think there's a chance of permanently magnetizing the watch if you're in the wrong place. But if you not where you're supposed to be then you not going to get the desired effect. Also I find I like to move it around a little set error as I don't just place it there one time I push the button I might rotate the movements or sometimes a turn it upside down if it's a pocket watch I like the place the mainspring over it because it makes a nice bump when you push the button but I'm guessing farther away is less effect

then isn't that a spectacular repair you just made? The weird sine wave and it's now perfect.

42 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Additionally, the price of women's watches is only a fraction of the equivalent male watch, probably due to a lot of people not wanting to service them??

traditionally in watch collecting women's watches have zero collectibility value. then of amusement occasionally if you look at women's watches they might be in solid gold you're less likely to find those now because when people are looking for gold they look everywhere but even a little gold ladies watch would have no value because it's a ladies watch. Then occasionally do find people like the service them after all it's just a really really really tiny version of something bigger. Oh then there's the other interesting problem mechanical things do not necessarily shrink the linear fashion. So you getting a little tiny ladies watch to run successfully becomes a more of a challenge.

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

8 hours ago, Waggy said:

The upside is that the next men's watch seems huge in comparison and so much easier to work on .

Hah, I had the exact same thought! Plus I feel like it's good practice for the fine motor skills needed to assemble it. I lost count of how many tries it took me to get all 4 pivots for the train bridge aligned at once, but it was definitely useful training.

 

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

then isn't that a spectacular repair you just made? The weird sine wave and it's now perfect.

It is! And thanks again for the help.

[Knebo]

Haha, wow, that's tiny. I just serviced an Omega 244, 13x17mm... it took me 6h to get the gear train into their pivots. I thought I was going mad.

But this Longines is even smaller 

Congratulations! 

[ManSkirtBrew]

Re-cased, running, and ready to go!