Frustrating Timex M24 issue

[kd8tzc]

So I have been working on fixing one of the older Timex watches that I have and I have gotten the movement to run again.  The problem I run into though is I get the face of the watch back, and the hour and minute hands have already been set to the face.  The watch is running, but when I go to put the second hand on, it just stops.  I take the second hand back off, and the watch is still stopped and it seems like the roller pin has come out of the pallet fork.  I then have to loosen the balance assembly screw, get things back the way they should be, and start all over again.

What am I doing wrong?  I am making sure the cannon pinion, the hour wheel, and hour wheel washer are all put together with the face and the hour and minute hands before I place it on the movement ever so gently.  But as soon as I start to apply pressure to put the second hand on, it all stops.  I'm about ready to leave the second hand off, but I really would like to get it back the way it should be, and I'm not sure what I could do differently.

I don't have the watch in a movement holder at this point in time, and the watch is running.  Should I let down all the power from the mainspring, and see if there is a way to fasten this in a movement holder?  When I have it dial side up, I have not been placing it in the movement holder as it seems like the holder might bind with the balance wheel and I am afraid it may damage it.  Maybe if I turn it 90 degrees I can get more clearance around the balance wheel.

[RichardHarris123]

We need photos of both the movement. 

[kd8tzc]

4 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

We need photos of both the movement. 

Right now I have it running, so not sure what the photo would tell you, but here you go.  I don't have the dial face on it, so you can see both the dial side in one picture and then the other side as well.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by kd8tzc
Better photos

[RichardHarris123]

What happens if you fit the second hand without the dial or other hands?

[kd8tzc]

I just tried that and the watch keeps running.

[Walt]

I'm working on a similar movement, a Timex 105. This is a practice watch for me, as a complete newbie; I'm more interested in WHY it won't run than I am in restoring the watch.

I've followed the Timex procedure to the letter (https://heritage1854.com/m105) except that I did not remove the balance wheel/hairspring for fear I wouldn't get it back together.  I've notice the Marshall on Wristwatch Revival actually puts the balance whee back into the movement before cleaning it so I felt safe leaving it in.

Anyway, I cleaned in in the ultrasonic cleaner, dried it thoroughly and lubricated it.  It runs, but barely.  I estimate the balance wheel only has about 45 degrees of movement, and (worse than kd8tcz) when I put the hour wheel and date frame assembly into place it becomes very erratic, will only run at all lying on its back with the movement holder loosened completely.  It appears that there is just not enough power getting through the train of wheels to keep it running.

Timex does not recommend further disassembly of the movement, and I can  appreciate why - with 5 pinions to align it would be areal challenge to reassemble.

I'd love to hear some comments by the more experienced folks here!

 

Walt

[kd8tzc]

Hi Walt... I'm not sure I would have put the movement with the balance wheel in it in the ultra sonic cleaner.  I've seen some videos online where they didn't do so hot in there.

When I put my M24 on the Timegrapher, I was getting about 175 degrees of amplitude, not great, but for the age, not bad.  I'm wondering if mine has a bent fork and that is causing the pallet fork to get stuck. I had it almost all put together, and then it stopped again when I placed it in the watch case.  Very frustrating.

[Bearman]

Hello kd8tzc, I've recently put back together a timex and your post intrigued me. I usually run mine in a movement holder (without dial and hands in various positions for a number of days to satisfy myself of its function and reliability. Partly because I've been caught out in the past with something similar and ended up breaking those dial tabs, going back in.

Things I've observed in my tinkering, is not to have the movement holder too tight. Due to my ham fistedness you can slightly flex the plates and get it to stop. 

I'd check all the screws as some hold not just the plates together.

If it's running erratically you may have too much oil in the v-conic cups. So it may run better one way up than the other. 

Check the play in the balance too. You may have to loosen a fraction. Again if you apply pressure with the dial you can get it to stop.

Keep us posted how you get on. Do you have any before and after pictures?

Good luck

 

[JerseyMo]

5 minutes ago, Bearman said:

if it's running erratically you may have too much oil in the v-conic cups. So it may run better one way up than the other. 

Check the play in the balance too. You may have to loosen a fraction. 

 

 

agreed to both!   the 104 - 105 and the like may look like the m24 but they are not as reliable. they worn out much faster.

[kd8tzc]

27 minutes ago, Bearman said:

Hello kd8tzc, I've recently put back together a timex and your post intrigued me. I usually run mine in a movement holder (without dial and hands in various positions for a number of days to satisfy myself of its function and reliability. Partly because I've been caught out in the past with something similar and ended up breaking those dial tabs, going back in.

Things I've observed in my tinkering, is not to have the movement holder too tight. Due to my ham fistedness you can slightly flex the plates and get it to stop. 

I'd check all the screws as some hold not just the plates together.

If it's running erratically you may have too much oil in the v-conic cups. So it may run better one way up than the other. 

Check the play in the balance too. You may have to loosen a fraction. Again if you apply pressure with the dial you can get it to stop.

Keep us posted how you get on. Do you have any before and after pictures?

Good luck

 

Thanks... it's funny as the play is how I get the balance wheel to reengage the fork again.  And yes, if it is too tight, the whole thing stops... it's finding that Goldilocks spot.

I'm getting to the point where I might take this whole movement apart and see what I can find out.  Just not sure I will be able to get it back together due to the way the two plates go together.

[Walt]

We're starting to think alike.  As I said, this movement is strictly a learning experience for me, and I'm getting close to complete disassembly.

Have you looked at the procedure to take out the hairspring wedge and unwinding it (or worse, getting it back together)?  That's the part that worries me the most.

 

[kd8tzc]

Yes, I have looked at those procedures. 

Last night I had an M25 that won't run, so I started the take down and cleaning.  I will not be removing the balance wheel from it, but taking everything else off.   I decided to start with the M25 as there is a video online of someone else doing so, so I have something to follow.

[Walt]

On 3/20/2023 at 6:57 PM, Walt said:

We're starting to think alike.  As I said, this movement is strictly a learning experience for me, and I'm getting close to complete disassembly.

Have you looked at the procedure to take out the hairspring wedge and unwinding it (or worse, getting it back together)?  That's the part that worries me the most.

 

I decided "this is only for practice" so I removed the hairspring and balance wheel.  I've probably spent 3 hours all told trying to get it back together.  I almost had it, was about to put the wedge back, and the tweezers slipper and everything fell apart again!  Tomorrow is another day...