staking tools

[Davis]

Can anyone tell me what diameter most staking tools are.  Do most manufactures use a standard size??  Looks like they are 1/4 to 3/8 diameter or so.

Thanks, Dave 

 

[Vinito]

I just measured the ones in my Marshall/Moseley a couple days ago so I could tell a buddy what they were, and it mic'ed at a couple thou under 3/16" (specifically .184" to .185")
I assume it's to fit a .187" bore in the frame with some slip. You could lathe polish (emery or whatever) some 3/16 to fit a staking frame I'd think.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Vinito

[nickelsilver]

The vast majority of staking tools use 4.7mm punches, including U.S. makes. 3/16" is 4.762mm, that extra 0.06mm is enough that it won't fit.

[mikepilk]

56 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The vast majority of staking tools use 4.7mm punches, including U.S. makes. 3/16" is 4.762mm, that extra 0.06mm is enough that it won't fit.

That explains something that's puzzled me.  I have an old Boley and Leinen - the stakes measure 4.67mm. But I have 2 which won't quite fit, they measure 4.73mm - annoying.

So, the Bergeon stakes, which are listed as 4.7mm - is that the diameter of the stake, or the size of the hole they fit ?

[nickelsilver]

30 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

That explains something that's puzzled me.  I have an old Boley and Leinen - the stakes measure 4.67mm. But I have 2 which won't quite fit, they measure 4.73mm - annoying.

So, the Bergeon stakes, which are listed as 4.7mm - is that the diameter of the stake, or the size of the hole they fit ?

I just checked a handful of punches from my Star, they are all between 4.68mm to 4.70 spot on, mostly spot on. Some K&D punches I have measure exactly 4.70mm (well, a couple were 4.705mm).

I checked a couple of Star frames, a Favorite, and a Seitz (they did make staking tools too), with plug gages; the Stars and Seitz have 4.73mm holes, the Favorite has 4.72mm.

 

The modern staking tool was invented in the U.S. in the 1870s; they did like to use things like "Stubs steel wire gage" a lot back then. Stubs #12 is 0.185", or 4.699mm. I'm guessing they somewhat arbitrarily settled on Stubs #12 as the punch size. The stump locating end, that's another matter, being 4mm (except for some oddballs that are 4.5mm or 5mm).

 

 

 

 

[praezis]

The assumption that all sizes have to match the inch grid is a funny one (for the rest of the world at least) 

Frank

[nickelsilver]

37 minutes ago, praezis said:

The assumption that all sizes have to match the inch grid is a funny one (for the rest of the world at least) 

Frank

As I understand it the punch diameter was originated in the U.S., which is pretty "inchy". Though in the watch industry it was a mix of inch and metric. It's just an odd diameter; why not 5mm? Thus the head scratching. Just as a lot of things in metric world stick to whole mms or some logical jumps, a lot of things in inch world stick to some fractional size. The 4.7 punch diameter does't fit a fractional size- but it does fit the Stubs steel wire gage, haha.

 

Now maybe I'm misinformed of the punch diameter origin (I read it in a 1910 book by K&D), but even if it was from mainland Europe, why such an odd size?

[praezis]

You're right, this is a special case, maybe the funny part on my side this time?

The manual punch sets were 4.0 mm. Indians used 5.0 mm (a copy of a japanese tool afaik)

Frank

 

[Davis]

Thanks for al the comments. Turning a few on my sherline lathe for balance shaft replacement.

Davel

[Geotex]

It's a bit maddening that they are so close but no cigar. When I was gathering up my first watchmaking tools I made what I thought was a great deal on a full set of old but unused stakes made by GF. But I may have found out why there weren't that many bidders when I unpacked them and realized they wouldn't fit the K&D staking tool that I had already bought, being one of the outlier sizes at ~4.77mm. Didn't fit the WestLake tool I had either, but that did give me an excuse to keep looking and later buy an incomplete GF set which was configured to allow use of the stakes as stumps in a reverso-type manner so it all worked out in the end. 

[Vinito]

I suppose the .002" difference (.1875" to .185")would be frustrating if you just wanted and needed a working staking set to do the watch work and get on with it. One could either modify a pile of stakes to fit their staking frame or modify the bore of their tool to fit their stakes.

I am kinda warped though because I have a long history of making tools and tinkering in the machine shop, so I see even making stakes from scratch as kind of a fun challenge. My reflex is to wonder and wail at why anyone mechanically inclined doesn't feel the same way, but if I simply take a short step back to consider other perspectives, I totally get it. I have a problem thinking I have enough time to do all these projects in the brief amount of time we have in one life, and I have at least five lifetimes of projects queued up as it is. It's a problem, and I understand that when you guys just want the tool to do the job, you don't feel like constantly reinventing the wheel.

BUT, if my simply mentioning that it can be done prompts anyone to dive in for a try (if you have the time), maybe this post was worth making.

[nickelsilver]

It's not too hard to find 4.7mm tool steel here (in Switzerland at least), but in the U.S. I remember getting some 0.185" from MSC back in the day. They've gone to the birds, but I see McMaster Carr has it, $6.57 for a 3 foot length of O1 precision ground steel. O1 is a great steel for home shop toolmaking, and about perfect for staking punches. Starting with the right diameter, it's simple and fast to drill and shape the end for whatever use needed, and you only need to harden the very end, so that's simple and fast too.

 

I keep some 4.7 on hand just for making oddball punches.