Seiko 7009A Kind of stopped working

[rahm]

Hello! So my seiko recently stopped working. Took it to a local watch repair and they said its rusted and it'll cost me about half the watch's price. So i decided to try it on my own since i have the tools and time for a simple dissassemble-reassemble.
What i found was :
Before the dissassembly :
1. The watch would stop working varying from 10 minutes-6 hours after winding.
2. Then it stopped taking wind from the rotor. However, seconds hand would start again after i pull the crown to pos 3 and adjust the hands, then back to my 1st point.

After the dissassembly :
1. I did not found any signs of rust 
2. The balance wheel is spinning freely when i tugged it with a toothpick/blow it. It still doesnt receive any power from the mainspring.
3. A screw from the plate above the pallet fork (?) is gone though it still sits itself nicely. However i could not find this screw in the watch.
4. I manually wind the mainspring with a screwdriver, it didnt move/transfer the power.
5. However, the mainspring spins when i removed the pallet fork and the weird looking wheel.

I couldnt find anything weird after that though i mightve missed something. Any tips will be appreciated! 

Thanks, Rahm.

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, rahm said:

 I manually wind the mainspring with a screwdriver, it didnt move/transfer the power.

If barrel  lid can be opened lets check contents of the barrel , otherwise it needs a new replacement. 

Rgds

[watchweasol]

Hello and welcome to the forum.. after disassembly??   Did you dismantle the watch completely,  and can you post some pictures of the movement as it sometimes helps.  So when the pallet fork is out everything moves ok the train wheels run freely with a little back spin, yes and when the pallet and balance are fitted it does not run, yes then we have a problem with the balance/pallet fork.  Check the end shake on both the balance and the fork, trueness and flatnes of balance spring and then report back.    
I suppose by weirded looking wheel  you mean escape wheel which interacts with the fork. Yes.

 

 

 

 

 

[Paul80]

A couple of concerns from your description

1. You wound the mainspring until it stopped taking any more wind, if I read that correctly that's not right, with an automatic wind mainspring you should be able to wind it untill the cows come home and it will still not stop taking a wind, the spring is designed to just slip around the barrel and not get fully wound.

2. The pallet cock screw is missing, unless it been missing for some time and the back has been off before it must be in there somewhere.  Have you fully stripped the watch or just removed the Ballance and pallet.  The may be stuck somewhere causing your problem and a full strip will be needed to find it.

[lexacat]

Heya, some pictures would be super useful! As the other guys have said it seems like there might be a couple of issues. The barrel might need to be replaced (seiko designed  the 7xxx series barrels to be fully replacement parts, not to be serviced although it is possible) plus the concerning missing pallet bridge screw. 

What's the history of this watch? How old is it, last service date, where is it from? If it's an eBay buy I know from experience it could be a very mixed bag.

[rahm]

Sorry for the late reply ! It looks like the mainspring isnt the problem, nor the pallet fork (i tested the pallet fork/escape wheel flick and it looks like the mainspring still can store power). im having trouble putting the balance back in though but so far havent seen anything unordinary. i suspect it might be something with the automatic wheels/work/rotor.  I also bought parts and it seems like it'll end up costing as much as if i just hand it to the repair guy. I quite enjoyed the process though. Thank you for the insights !

[watchweasol]

Hi. With power on the mainspring the watch should run without the automatic assy on .What’s the problem fitting the balance, dont force anything, once the balance cock is in position put the screw in for a couple of turns just to steady it then jiggle the balance wheel into position,once in position using a fine brush start the balance and slowley screw the cock down all the while keep the balance swinging. If it stops as the screw is tightened stop and back off as its not in position correctly and reasses the problem.

[rahm]

15 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi. With power on the mainspring the watch should run without the automatic assy on .What’s the problem fitting the balance, dont force anything, once the balance cock is in position put the screw in for a couple of turns just to steady it then jiggle the balance wheel into position,once in position using a fine brush start the balance and slowley screw the cock down all the while keep the balance swinging. If it stops as the screw is tightened stop and back off as its not in position correctly and reasses the problem.

Hello and thank you for the reply. I have fitted the balance back on and felt that it spins freely when i try moving it with a peg and. However it doesnt spin as its supposed to take power from the wheels. Now iam not sure which part is the problem.

[Nucejoe]

37 minutes ago, rahm said:

 I have fitted the balance back on and felt that it spins freely when i try moving it with a peg.

Your test for freely turning oscilator  doesn't sound valid. 

Fork removed, give the oscilator a 270degree amplitude, oscilation should last at least 20 seconds up to 30 seconds, same test in FU and FD down positions, PU is normanlly a few seconds less.

Rgds

 

Your report if valid , points to paletts, worn/ heavy lock ..... . 

The points/ questions  paul80 raised has so far remained unanswered.

Rgds

[rahm]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Fork removed, give the oscilator a 270degree amplitude, oscilation should last at least 20 seconds up to 30 seconds, same test in FU and FD down positions, PU is normanlly a few seconds less.

 

I have done this and the oscillation only lasts for around 5-10 seconds. Pardon me but i do not understand FU FD and PU. 
 

 

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

The points/ questions  paul80 raised has so far remained unanswered.

 

Ah yes! regarding this, 
1. The mainspring did slip and iam able to wind it through and through.
2. I have fully stripped the movement and have not found that missing screw. I already have plans for this though.

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, rahm said:

I have done this and the oscillation only lasts for around 5-10 seconds. Pardon me but i do not understand FU FD and PU. 
 

 

Ah yes! regarding this, 
1. The mainspring did slip and iam able to wind it through and through.
2. I have fully stripped the movement and have not found that missing screw. I already have plans for this though.

FU face up is also same as DU dial up. FD  face down is also DD dial down ( not a bra size, well not in this case anyway ) . If the balance installed with the pallet fork is only oscillating for 5 -10 seconds after a good puffer blow. Then there is some friction or obstruction somewhere. Could be anything on the balance. Frequently hairspring or staff pivot issue. Have a close inspection of these two things first. I was going to suggest before you removed the pallet fork for testing the balance, that the impulse jewel may not be entering the pallet fork as you install the balance. Or the impulse is not on the open side of the fork ready to enter when starting. This is easily determined by the lack of any movement from the balance as the impulse hits the outside of the fork horn. 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, rahm said:

I have done this and the oscillation only lasts for around 5-10 seconds. 

Hi rahm, as said something is obstructitng the oscilator ,   near zero end shake, bent pivot, damaged or gummed up jewels, something rubbing (  hairspring on balance spokes for instance) etc  .......  

Broken pivot can be dismissed at this time, as the watch did run 10min to 6 hrs.

[rahm]

57 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Could be anything on the balance. Frequently hairspring or staff pivot issue. Have a close inspection of these two things first.

 

14 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi rahm, as said something is obstructitng the oscilator ,   near zero end shake, bent pivot, damaged or gummed up jewels, something rubbing (  hairspring on balance spokes for instance) etc  .......  

 

Now that you mentioned it, theres quite some kink on the outermost part of the hairspring. Im sorry but i do not have the equipment to picture it. It looks bent, half side of it is quite far from the inner line and half side of it is touching the inner line. But referencing to some people's pics and vids on this hairspring, i think it looks normal. I do notice theres little to no endshake compared to this vid. I will check the jewels and the bridges after this.

Again, thank you for the replies!

 

[Nucejoe]

   " little to no end shake"    will expectedly  impede the oscilator.

What to do:     While the movement is running loosen the screw to balance cock about a turn. 

Rgds

 

Just now, Nucejoe said:

   " little to no end shake"    will expectedly  impede the oscilator.

What to do:     While the movement is running loosen the screw to balance cock about a turn. 

Rgds

 

The vid wont open on my device, what do you intend to show? 

[smeggem]

If your geartrain is free then I would check the pallet fork stones and pivots, the balance pivots and jewels. All these parts need to be spotless with no worn or bent pivots.

[Paul80]

The easiest way to check the gear train is to remove the balance and pallet fork then using a screwdriver wind the mainspring a good number of turns then let the mainspring unwind, you should hear a nice whistle from the spinning gears then just as they stop rotating you should see a slight reverse turn of the gears. Not getting both would indicate something is too tight in the gear train, if you do get both then it would suggest to issue is in the escapement.

Over the last couple of years I have done more than a dozen 7009a movements and if there was a problem with them running it was always down to the balance and it's spring.

If the watch this movement is from came from eBay then there is a very good chance it at some point in its life passed through the Mumbai watch refurbishment industry and they have a very high reputation for not cleaning or handling parts, especially balances correctly, fitting a new balance may well solve the issues, a genuine new balance is not too expensive for this model (under £10) it might be worth just getting one from somewhere like cousins just to confirm.

[lexacat]

Keep in mind if you're planning to remove the pallet fork for inspection you'll want to ensure you've let the mainspring down fully first. 

[Paul80]

Or just hold the escape wheel still with an old oiler unil the pallet is removed, then remove the oiler and watch and listen for the whistle as the wheels spin down.