Strange minute wheel rework?

[fellerts]

Hi guys!

Just finished disassembling my first non-scrap wristwatch, an Elgin A-11. The movement was in surprisingly good condition, apart from missing the entire center seconds works as well as the hacking mechanism... A bit sad about that, but that's what you get buying vintage watches online I guess. The missing seconds hand should've been a red flag...

While disassembling I noticed that the minute wheel seems to have been repaired at some point? To me it looks like someone has soldered new teeth to this wheel... But why would anyone bother - surely replacing the wheel would be cheaper than the labor that went into this? Really curious to hear someone else's opinion here. Is this normal?

Apologize for blurry pictures, taking a photo through my loupe wasn't easy.

 

[Paul80]

Why was the repair done instead of just buying a replacement part, it's  probably as simple as because whomever did the repair could do the repair and it's probably as simple as that, most of us amateurs spend far to much time fixing watches to ever make a repair financially viable but we carry on just because we can.

Very few low budget watches should ever be repaired because the cost of even a service would exceed their value, we just do them for fun

[fellerts]

I didn't realize that mine might not be the first amateur hands to work on this movement! That makes a lot of sense - I'd do the same if I had the expertise. I'm impressed though, and I've got a lot to learn! 

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 hours ago, fellerts said:

Hi guys!

Just finished disassembling my first non-scrap wristwatch, an Elgin A-11. The movement was in surprisingly good condition, apart from missing the entire center seconds works as well as the hacking mechanism... A bit sad about that, but that's what you get buying vintage watches online I guess. The missing seconds hand should've been a red flag...

While disassembling I noticed that the minute wheel seems to have been repaired at some point? To me it looks like someone has soldered new teeth to this wheel... But why would anyone bother - surely replacing the wheel would be cheaper than the labor that went into this? Really curious to hear someone else's opinion here. Is this normal?

Apologize for blurry pictures, taking a photo through my loupe wasn't easy.

 

I think that skill would be beyond anyone but a master watch maker. I think you are looking at the gilt plating that has deteriorated matey

[KarlvonKoln]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I think that skill would be beyond anyone but a master watch maker. I think you are looking at the gilt plating that has deteriorated matey

Actually, I think he's right.  I think it's a repair. Take a look at that first pic, showing the bottom-side of the minute wheel.  Rather than cutting a wedge shape, the repairer cut a square section out, and soldered in a section - probably from another salvaged minute wheel that had damage elsewhere.  I've had to do that for a large pocket watch wheel.
I like to think I made my repair looked better; I made sure the solder filled all gaps and stoned the top and bottom surfaces flat, popped it into my depthing gauge and dressed the teeth a bit.  But I have to concede: that minute wheel is a LOT smaller than the wheel I did, so if the person who did that repair managed to make it decently functional, salude! 
I still wonder about those minute wheel teeth though; the edges are "mushroomed" over a bit, showing evidence of enormous pressure being used to turn the wheel.  Either that was never addressed during the repair, or the teeth broke off for a reason which still existed after the repair.  I'd investigate whether the reason for the teeth breaking was ever addressed - whether there was extreme friction or resistance that had to be overcome in setting the time, and what caused it.  Because, otherwise, more teeth will break later.  You can count on it.

[Neverenoughwatches]

29 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

Actually, I think he's right.  I think it's a repair. Take a look at that first pic, showing the bottom-side of the minute wheel.  Rather than cutting a wedge shape, the repairer cut a square section out, and soldered in a section - probably from another salvaged minute wheel that had damage elsewhere.  I've had to do that for a large pocket watch wheel.
I like to think I made my repair looked better; I made sure the solder filled all gaps and stoned the top and bottom surfaces flat, popped it into my depthing gauge and dressed the teeth a bit.  But I have to concede: that minute wheel is a LOT smaller than the wheel I did, so if the person who did that repair managed to make it decently functional, salude! 
I still wonder about those minute wheel teeth though; the edges are "mushroomed" over a bit, showing evidence of enormous pressure being used to turn the wheel.  Either that was never addressed during the repair, or the teeth broke off for a reason which still existed after the repair.  I'd investigate whether the reason for the teeth breaking was ever addressed - whether there was extreme friction or resistance that had to be overcome in setting the time, and what caused it.  Because, otherwise, more teeth will break later.  You can count on it.

It just looks like the teeth still have some plating on them and the repair looks  different on each side. As though some contamination has occured and spread out differently on both sides to remove the plating. Or am i looking at how the repair has been dressed flush on each side and removed plating. Not easy to tell from the photo. Some good skill if its a repair. Maybe fellerts can post us a good macro shot, I'm curious to see this sort of fix.

[fellerts]

Got a microscope today, so these picture should be better. KarlvonKoln's suggestion of the previous tinkerer cutting a square section of the wheel out looks very plausible. Amazing how well aligned the teeth ended up!

 

Also, the cannon pinion looks a little chewed up and there are brass specks between the pinion leaves. Not sure if this is normal, but it does hint at the minute wheel working too hard.

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 hours ago, fellerts said:

Got a microscope today, so these picture should be better. KarlvonKoln's suggestion of the previous tinkerer cutting a square section of the wheel out looks very plausible. Amazing how well aligned the teeth ended up!

 

Also, the cannon pinion looks a little chewed up and there are brass specks between the pinion leaves. Not sure if this is normal, but it does hint at the minute wheel working too hard.

Ah i can see that now, the teeth look a different shape also. Strange how the square section only seems visible from one side. Wonder how it would be held in place ? Would have thought the solder would have to fill a void at the joins and then show a visable fill section. Still kinda looks like contamination as well though. But whatever my curiosity is bugging me so i have to let it go now lol.  i think you may need to source a new one and a canon pinion. Both look in rough shape, and then determine what caused the wear. Keep us posted.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[fellerts]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ah i can see that now, the teeth look a different shape also. Strange how the square section only seems visible from one side. Wonder how it would be held in place ? Would have thought the solder would have to fill a void at the joins and then show a visable fill section. Still kinda looks like contamination as well though. But whatever my curiosity is bugging me so i have to let it go now lol.  i think you may need to source a new one and a canon pinion. Both look in rough shape, and then determine what caused the wear. Keep us posted.

Appreciate your tips! I probably will try to find a donor movement seeing as the sweeping seconds works are all missing as well. Luckily the train looks spotless.

Apart from eBay, are there any places you guys go looking for donor movements? I stubled across Dave's watch parts yesterday and am loving the early 2000's style he's got going  no 539 parts though unfortunately.

[JohnR725]

looking at your picture this reminds me of why it's always best to snap the cannon pinion on when the minute wheels not in place. the worst-case scenario of having the minute wheel in place early would be losing one of the teeth off the cannon pinion the more likely you would see Bent minute wheel teeth or to guess if you're really enthusiastic you could probably break a tooth off requiring repair.

On 10/6/2022 at 12:58 PM, fellerts said:

But why would anyone bother - surely replacing the wheel would be cheaper than the labor that went into this?

just as a reminder when was this watch made? Did they have the Internet back then did the person of access to a watch material house? Yes today it seems so simple look online order the part it shows up in no time but wasn't always the case. Plus maybe had just a really obsessed hobbyist didn't have access to a material house and had a lot of time on their hands and they did make a repair.

[KarlvonKoln]

If you do scare up a donor movement, I'd inspect the setting train from crown to cannon pinion.  If every piece looks better than yours, I'd swap them all out. The force that was applied from turning the crown has traveled throughout the setting train.  If JohnR725 is correct, the teeth only got nipped off because of someone snapping the cannon pinion down onto the minute wheel teeth.  But looking at the cannon pinion too, I kind of wonder what else has been going on here.  Looking at how the faces of the teeth of the minute wheel were mushed down by force, I think the whole train was stressed.  If it were me, I'd swap out as much of the setting train as I could.

[fellerts]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

looking at your picture this reminds me of why it's always best to snap the cannon pinion on when the minute wheels not in place. the worst-case scenario of having the minute wheel in place early would be losing one of the teeth off the cannon pinion the more likely you would see Bent minute wheel teeth or to guess if you're really enthusiastic you could probably break a tooth off requiring repair.

just as a reminder when was this watch made? Did they have the Internet back then did the person of access to a watch material house? Yes today it seems so simple look online order the part it shows up in no time but wasn't always the case. Plus maybe had just a really obsessed hobbyist didn't have access to a material house and had a lot of time on their hands and they did make a repair.

Thanks John, I will definitely keep that in mind in the future. This movement came out of a very beat up Elgin A-11 from 1943 (judging by the serial number). Who knows what hardships it has been through during the war and the following 80 years!

24 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

If you do scare up a donor movement, I'd inspect the setting train from crown to cannon pinion.  If every piece looks better than yours, I'd swap them all out. The force that was applied from turning the crown has traveled throughout the setting train.  If JohnR725 is correct, the teeth only got nipped off because of someone snapping the cannon pinion down onto the minute wheel teeth.  But looking at the cannon pinion too, I kind of wonder what else has been going on here.  Looking at how the faces of the teeth of the minute wheel were mushed down by force, I think the whole train was stressed.  If it were me, I'd swap out as much of the setting train as I could.

Good advice Karl! I'll update this thread with any progress.

[LittleWatchShop]

4 hours ago, fellerts said:

Apart from eBay, are there any places you guys go looking for donor movements? I stubled across Dave's watch parts yesterday and am loving the early 2000's style he's got going  no 539 parts though unfortunately.

Having worked on a couple of 539s recently, I can offer a few thoughts.

Getting a donor 539 is expensive.  They are well known and sought after.  I had a 539 missing balance wheel and balance cock (came with a watchbench full of stuff).  After considerable research, I found that the 554 shares the majority of the components less the sweep second (it uses sub second).  These go pretty cheap--recently got one to my mailbox for $34.  I robbed the balance assembly and brought my 539 to life and it is happily running.

Even though the center wheel is different between the two calibers, I bet the cannon pinion swaps...some research might confirm. NO IT DOES NOT...PROBABLY HAS A CLOSED END.  SEE CLIP FROM THE HANDY MANUAL

Are you missing the entire sweep second wheel train?  That will be tough, if so.

I sent you a PM that gives you the solution you need.  ACT FAST.

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Did they have the Internet back then did the person of access to a watch material house?

No.  The internet was created by Al Gore back in the late 70s.  This watch dates in the 40s.

Edited October 8, 2022 by LittleWatchShop

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

the teeth only got nipped off because of someone snapping the cannon pinion down onto the minute wheel teeth.  But looking at the cannon pinion too, I kind of wonder what else has been going on here.  Looking at how the faces of the teeth of the minute wheel were mushed down by force, I think the whole train was stressed.  If it were me, I'd swap out as much of the setting train as I could.

one of things we all have to member in watch repair is this is watch repair? What do I mean by that well somebody ask a question and it leads to jump on personal experience answers but many times are answers could be wrong and someone else could be right or a combination of both or even neither. If for some reason the cannon pinion is super tight or possibly rust the which would make it super tight or some other unknown factor.

this is why it's really important on incoming watches to do proper evaluations. Visually look at everything checked the winding check the setting. Often times these steps can get skipped and later on your wondering why there's a problem

 

[fellerts]

While busy losing auctions for donor Elgin 539 movements (thanks for the tips LittleWatchShop), I believe I've found the root cause of the mangled minute wheel. While re-assembling the motion works, I noticed that the minute wheel pinion scrapes against a part of the setting lever resulting in significant friction. Removing the setting lever and minute wheel revealed that the minute wheel post isn't straight! It leans to one side, forcing the minute wheel to butt up against the setting lever. My guess is that the increased friction is enough to chew up the teeth of every gear in the motion and keyless works when winding the watch.

[LittleWatchShop]

Oh, my that looks very bad.  Can you post a picture of the post without the minute wheel and cover installed?

Here is a picture I had of the same setup.

[fellerts]

7 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Oh, my that looks very bad.  Can you post a picture of the post without the minute wheel and cover installed?

Here is a picture I had of the same setup.

Yep, that looks more like what I'd expect. Here's the best angle I could get. I'm starting to doubt the viability of this movement... But I'm learning a lot, which is of course the main goal! And I'm having fun 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

I think the professionals will have to weigh in on this.

Trying to bend the post may break it.

If it were me, I think I could replace the post (remove, drill, press in a new post).  I have all of the tools to do that.

Since you have this apart, can you post a picture of the other side of the plate showing the hacking parts.  My Elgins are all assembled, so I dont want to tear them down for this.  Just trying to remember how the hacking lever is attached to the plate.

[fellerts]

32 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I think the professionals will have to weigh in on this.

Trying to bend the post may break it.

If it were me, I think I could replace the post (remove, drill, press in a new post).  I have all of the tools to do that.

Since you have this apart, can you post a picture of the other side of the plate showing the hacking parts.  My Elgins are all assembled, so I dont want to tear them down for this.  Just trying to remember how the hacking lever is attached to the plate.

No luck, the hacking mechanism was also missing from this movement. Someone really had their way with this poor thing.

[JohnR725]

look carefully on the backside and see if the minute we'll post it looks like it will push out. A lot of times the posts were pressed in so they can press back out.

I have a Elgin wristwatch which is really a tiny pocket watch on the bench at work and the first movement had stripped screws. The replacement movement off eBay that looked promising had been dropped on its crown from Mount Everest or some other elevation. It'd banned all the parts quite a ways in and made the watch unsuitable. the third watch from eBay look sexy quite promising and if I'm lucky I get it back together this week. It is really amazing some of the bad things that happened the watches in the outside world.

[LittleWatchShop]

59 minutes ago, fellerts said:

No luck, the hacking mechanism was also missing from this movement. Someone really had their way with this poor thing.

Oh my!!

OK, this is the point where you decide if the watch you have is really a donor watch, and you look for another on ebay where this one provides the needed parts for the new ebay find.

Another thing to decide is whether this is your learner watch, or a watch that you really wanted for your collection.

Frankly, I would try to fix it.  I would find out how the hacking mechanism is constructed and build one myself.  I always take a picture of the disassembly, but often forget to include the main plate (as shown here).

Maybe there is a picture on the internet.

OH...here it is.

[LittleWatchShop]

17 hours ago, fellerts said:

No luck, the hacking mechanism was also missing from this movement. Someone really had their way with this poor thing.

So, what's your plan?

[fellerts]

8 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

So, what's your plan?

Sorry, too much work these days. I had a fresh look through the movement, here are all the issues I've discovered so far:

• Bent minute wheel post
• Chewed up motion and keyless works:
  • Canon pinion
  • Minute wheel
  • Intermediate setting wheel
  • Ratchet wheel and sliding pinion ratchet (these might be OK, not sure)
• One of the escapement banking pins are bent
• The center wheel still has the remainders of a broken sweep seconds pinion inside it (explains the missing sweeping seconds )
• The post of the crown wheel is very chewed up but seems to perform its job still
• Missing hack
• Missing all sweeping seconds works as well as the seconds hand
• The top "olive-hole jewel" (term from maintenance manual) on the balance is loose
• Wrong case screws

I think it's safe to say that this was someone's practice/scrap movement at some point.

17 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Frankly, I would try to fix it.  I would find out how the hacking mechanism is constructed and build one myself. 

17 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

look carefully on the backside and see if the minute we'll post it looks like it will push out. A lot of times the posts were pressed in so they can press back out.

These sounds like a fun adventures! I have no experience in metal-working though, and I most likely lack the required tools. I'm still working on acquiring all the basic matchmaking equipment (vintage K&D mainspring winders are in the mail), so the repair work you guys suggest will have to wait until I'm equipped to and comfortable with performing basic service.

I'll still bid on 539 movements on eBay and kick the decision of what to do with this movement down the road a bit  would be awesome if I'm able to restore this at some point, but right now it seems insurmountable.

[LittleWatchShop]

14 minutes ago, fellerts said:

I'll still bid on 539 movements on eBay and kick the decision of what to do with this movement down the road a bit  would be awesome if I'm able to restore this at some point, but right now it seems insurmountable.

With all of those problems, I think that it should be used as a donor movement.

[Neverenoughwatches]

20 hours ago, fellerts said:

While busy losing auctions for donor Elgin 539 movements (thanks for the tips LittleWatchShop), I believe I've found the root cause of the mangled minute wheel. While re-assembling the motion works, I noticed that the minute wheel pinion scrapes against a part of the setting lever resulting in significant friction. Removing the setting lever and minute wheel revealed that the minute wheel post isn't straight! It leans to one side, forcing the minute wheel to butt up against the setting lever. My guess is that the increased friction is enough to chew up the teeth of every gear in the motion and keyless works when winding the watch.

Is there a reason you can't remove some material from this part of the keyless cover plate ?