Waltham Seaside movement. Serviced and new mainspring, amplitude is decent, but hour/minute hands don't move

[GregG]

17 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

A problem of watch parts especially vintage parts is watch parts can all look identical but the problem is they are fit to the components they go on. If you start swapping components around they will still look the same but they may not fit the same. Typically when this part goes down it's supposed to be even with the top the center wheel yours is not.

Now that the cannon pinion Is off you the 50 minute wheel it should fit nice and it shouldn't be tight it shouldn't take any forced to go on you can also put the hour wheel on the cannon pinion When they're often they should fit together but not tight they have to all move very nice and effortlessly. Then you can attempt to Push the cannon pinion On sometimes it takes a lot of force but it does have to go all the way down almost flush with the plate you don't what it super tight because it does have to be up off the plate just a little bit but yours still looked too tall than the hour and minute wheel can go back. Then you can test them without putting the hands and dial on the early enough the case of the watch and see how they feel when you go in the setting they shouldn't be so tight that you feel like you're going to break things.

Hi John, normally the pinion and the center wheel are flush with eachother, but the hour wheel is such a tight fit that when I pulled it off, it took the cannon pinion with it.  However, the amount of effort is takes to put the cannon pinion on is so much that I think the best answer here is that they're simply not from the same watch.

20 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If you can make sure the cannon pinion is thoughly clean inside and out. And the hour wheel also inside, maybe a gentle clean inside with a smoothing broach might dislodge some old oil that maybe in there.  If after that then i think we can only assume that either the cannon pinion or the hour wheel is not from this watch. 

When you say "not from this watch," do you mean it's from a different model, or a different watch, even of the same model/grade?  Because I found one that appears to be identical, so I want to use it as a donor movement.

Mine

One from ebay

It looks like the second one is identical other than that part of it was a 15j run, and mine was in the 7j run.  Would the cannon pinion and hour wheel from these be useable?

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, GregG said:

However, the amount of effort is takes to put the cannon pinion on is so much that I think the best answer here is that they're simply not from the same watch.

That answer may not the correct? Yes sometimes to view purchase movements off of eBay somebody might've done mixing and matching perhaps.

One of the problems you'll find with specially on American pocket watches is cannon pinions are basically hand you. This means each one has been adjusted to the center wheel but it goes on if it is too tight you'll have to solve that problem as getting an identical looking one may not fit at all either of the way too tight or it could be too loose. So if yours is too tight you have to fix the problem. You also need to fix the problem of the hour and minute wheel they need to go on without tight fitting they have to revolve effortlessly without being a loose.

This is the unfortunate consequence of American watch repair is you have to repair versus trying to swap your way out of a parts problem where you introduce new problems. Which means of somebody has played with this watch before you you made now be dealing with the consequences of  that.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, GregG said:

Hi John, normally the pinion and the center wheel are flush with eachother, but the hour wheel is such a tight fit that when I pulled it off, it took the cannon pinion with it.  However, the amount of effort is takes to put the cannon pinion on is so much that I think the best answer here is that they're simply not from the same watch.

When you say "not from this watch," do you mean it's from a different model, or a different watch, even of the same model/grade?  Because I found one that appears to be identical, so I want to use it as a donor movement.

Mine

One from ebay

It looks like the second one is identical other than that part of it was a 15j run, and mine was in the 7j run.  Would the cannon pinion and hour wheel from these be useable?

Different watches from the same model of watch can even have their differences. Very much so in pocket watches, when their years of make can be a long way apart. Changing of machinery in that time period could be a reason for this, and John will state they were often made in batches. So there is no guarantee that they will match. Having serial numbers very close to each other will improve the chances so try to at least coincide their years of manufacture.  I wouldnt know about the jewel count differences John may have an idea on this. Best to match as close as possible, but as with most old vintage timepieces acquiring parts can be a waiting game.

 

[GregG]

So is broaching the inside the next best option?

[JohnR725]

1 minute ago, GregG said:

o is broaching the inside the next best option?

Yes be really careful about it. Then sometimes they appear to go on with heckuva lot of force but once their down tight their loose. Yes that actually happen so you have to be careful and basically try at each time. Also you're supposed to put a little bit a grease on the center shaft they're not supposed to go on dry.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, GregG said:

So is broaching the inside the next best option?

It probably is for the hour wheel greg. There are smoothing and cutting broaches. Be very careful when opening it up, just a little at a time as it is very easy to overshoot and with a little oil to help the cut. I always  go with a fine broach with very little gain on the stem, so that the cut isn't at all aggresive, slow and steady. Its easy to take more out, nigh impossible to put it back. Then a smoothing broach to dress the cut.

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

and John will state they were often made in batches.

To understand this better we need the serial number of this watch. Then you go to this website enter in your serial number who made the watch typically they only have American watches here and if you're lucky is listed.

In the meantime I'll take your example picture use its serial number and we have this link

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/8345234

Then it all kinds of nifty technical information including this particular one was a run of 8000. I was looking up somebody's watching earlier today and it was a run of 100 which is abnormally small. Then you'll notice the total quantity of theseAlmost 1,000,000 of them were made more than likely there would be variations between the first in the West and somewhere along the way they'll be variations.

That I'm having an incredible déjà vu feeling that I did this exact same exercise must've been earlier today oh I remember it was earlier today and yesterday.For instance here's a link in 1911 parts book for Waltham

https://archive.org/details/catalogueofwalth00walt

Then we see that the model is 1891 even though it has a name.Page 136 in the book has your parts that is if it was 1911 if you had a material house you're doing business with then they would be able to order the parts because more likely they wouldn't carry the parts in stock.

In any case can download the PDF for the manual which is really nice. Unfortunately we can't go back in time to buy the parts and you should bill a recognize that of a watch was made over a number of years the quantity up to 1 million in batches of even 8000 W variations in the batches so somebody did a mix-and-match of parts on your watch that's why you could have issues although usually if it's all case step of the dial on I don't know I'd be suspicious of things weren't fitting I would look really careful to make sure there's no rust to her old lubrication still on. I'm not saying someone couldn't some swap the parts anything's possible over time. You never know what your predecessors in watch repair going to do to your watch