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Waltham Seaside movement. Serviced and new mainspring, amplitude is decent, but hour/minute hands don't move


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I attempted to service my first Waltham Seaside today.  Looks sort of like this:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/QDEAAOSw~JhiBf2L/s-l400.jpg

I did the usual tear-down, clean, rebuild and oil.  After reassembling and putting the hands on, I noticed that the hour hand and minute hand were not moving.  The watch is ticking, and the sub seconds hand is moving.

I suspect that it's due to the reduction gear and hour wheel both being unusually tight against their respective posts.  Normally the hour wheel slips right over the canon pinion with no problem, but this one needed me to give it a little oomph to get on.  I don't have time right now to disassemble the top of it again, so I'd like to reach out before I dedicate the time.

Does a tight reduction/hour wheel sound like the culprit?  If not. what else could it be?

Edited by GregG
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Hi, I haven't taken it apart yet.  I only noticed the issue after winding down for the day.  I will probably try again tomorrow or Friday, but I am collecting advice for what to check for first before jumping in.

What about the cannon pinion can be faulty?  It seats pretty firmly against the center wheel, isn't that how it's supposed to be?

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The cannon pinion can be one of three things:

  1. Too tight
  2. Too loose
  3. Just right

Options 1 and 2 are both problematic.

You should also check that when you placed the cannon pinion it seated correctly and the pinion teeth engaged. 

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4 hours ago, GregG said:

I attempted to service my first Waltham Seaside today.  Looks sort of like this:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/QDEAAOSw~JhiBf2L/s-l400.jpg

I did the usual tear-down, clean, rebuild and oil.  After reassembling and putting the hands on, I noticed that the hour hand and minute hand were not moving.  The watch is ticking, and the sub seconds hand is moving.

I suspect that it's due to the reduction gear and hour wheel both being unusually tight against their respective posts.  Normally the hour wheel slips right over the canon pinion with no problem, but this one needed me to give it a little oomph to get on.  I don't have time right now to disassemble the top of it again, so I'd like to reach out before I dedicate the time.

Does a tight reduction/hour wheel sound like the culprit?  If not. what else could it be?

Hi Greg. Yes the hour wheel should not be a tight fit, it needs to revlove freely independent of the cannon pinion. Maybe one or the other has been changed or damaged at some point. Was it tight as soon as it was placed on the cannon pinion or as it was engaging with the intermediate wheel ? I would first start by removing the hour wheel  and observe how the watch runs. Do you remember it being tight when you removed it ? If not has something happened since then ? Have you raised any material on the cannon pinion that could be causing friction between that and the hour wheel when you removed the cannon pinion ?

4 hours ago, GregG said:

  It seats pretty firmly against the center wheel, isn't that how it's supposed to be?

Yes Greg it should be a reasonably firm fit. Generally they are more prone to becoming loose, this would cause the minuit hand to flop around. Your issue is pointing towards the tight hour wheel. 

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Do you remember it being tight when you removed it ? If not has something happened since then ? Have you raised any material on the cannon pinion that could be causing friction between that and the hour wheel when you removed the cannon pinion ?

Just as a side note to helping newbies with slowing down their eagerness to jump in strip down and then faulter to put back together.   # inspection during disassembly is just as important as correction of reassembly # Guru Richy

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2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi Greg. Yes the hour wheel should not be a tight fit, it needs to revlove freely independent of the cannon pinion. Maybe one or the other has been changed or damaged at some point. Was it tight as soon as it was placed on the cannon pinion or as it was engaging with the intermediate wheel ? I would first start by removing the hour wheel  and observe how the watch runs. Do you remember it being tight when you removed it ? If not has something happened since then ? Have you raised any material on the cannon pinion that could be causing friction between that and the hour wheel when you removed the cannon pinion ?

Yes Greg it should be a reasonably firm fit. Generally they are more prone to becoming loose, this would cause the minuit hand to flop around. Your issue is pointing towards the tight hour wheel. 

Just as a side note to helping newbies with slowing down their eagerness to jump in strip down and then faulter to put back together.   # inspection during disassembly is just as important as correction of reassembly # Guru Richy

Why John what a lovely gesture. I knew you loved me really 😘

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2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Yes the hour wheel should not be a tight fit, it needs to revlove freely independent of the cannon pinion. Maybe one or the other has been changed or damaged at some point. Was it tight as soon as it was placed on the cannon pinion or as it was engaging with the intermediate wheel ? I would first start by removing the hour wheel  and observe how the watch runs. Do you remember it being tight when you removed it ? If not has something happened since then ? Have you raised any material on the cannon pinion that could be causing friction between that and the hour wheel when you removed the cannon pinion ?

in addition to this very good paragraph it would be nice to get a background history of the watch? In other words what was its condition before you attempted to clean it. Seeing as how this is a wristwatch a very old wristwatch it probably had a plastic crystal. It will sometimes come up on pocket watches but the early crystals had an unfortunate habit of becoming yellow in color. That is a harmless side effect but it also had a habit of producing nasty chemicals which rusted things like the hands. Are your hands rusty? Often times the rust progresses farther into the dial. But it's usually nice if we get a background history and as stated above when you are disassembling it did you notice any problems. rust also is an issue with wristwatches especially old ones because they don't have the gaskets and there were more likely to be out in the weather like on your wrist when it rains.

Ideally you like to figure out what the problems are before cleaning. If the problems that can be fixed you attempt to fix the problems unless of course you diagnose that cleaning will fix the problem. But the hour wheel the minute wheel and the rest of the wheels on the gear train other than the cannon pinion have to be free to turn. If they have corrosion rust or extremely bad old lubrication gluing them in place that's very undesirable.

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Just as a side note to helping newbies with slowing down their eagerness to jump in strip down and then faulter to put back together.   # inspection during disassembly is just as important as correction of reassembly # Guru Richy

 yes the unfortunate universal newbie tactic of if it doesn't work strip it down clean it again and it will somehow magically work. In other words cleaning fixes everything. If only it was that simple?

then thank you for the picture because the picture gives us a serial number serial number on the website below gives us nicer looking pictures of the same watch and a little background history.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/8345234

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10 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi Greg. Yes the hour wheel should not be a tight fit, it needs to revlove freely independent of the cannon pinion. Maybe one or the other has been changed or damaged at some point. Was it tight as soon as it was placed on the cannon pinion or as it was engaging with the intermediate wheel ? I would first start by removing the hour wheel  and observe how the watch runs. Do you remember it being tight when you removed it ? If not has something happened since then ? Have you raised any material on the cannon pinion that could be causing friction between that and the hour wheel when you removed the cannon pinion ?

Yes Greg it should be a reasonably firm fit. Generally they are more prone to becoming loose, this would cause the minuit hand to flop around. Your issue is pointing towards the tight hour wheel. 

Just as a side note to helping newbies with slowing down their eagerness to jump in strip down and then faulter to put back together.   # inspection during disassembly is just as important as correction of reassembly # Guru Richy

Unfortunately, I don't remember what it was like before I removed it.  I started to disassemble it, but then I took a few days off because I wasn't feeling well (thankfully not COVID), and I finally got back into it yesterday.  If I remember correctly from last night, the cannon pinion gets tough towards the bottom of its travel, but the hour wheel was tough the entire way.  I don't see any evidence that it was ever replaced because everything seems otherwise in good condition.  The gears are meshed well.  I didn't handle the cannon pinion roughly or anything, so I don't think that I raised anything.

 

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

in addition to this very good paragraph it would be nice to get a background history of the watch? In other words what was its condition before you attempted to clean it. Seeing as how this is a wristwatch a very old wristwatch it probably had a plastic crystal. It will sometimes come up on pocket watches but the early crystals had an unfortunate habit of becoming yellow in color. That is a harmless side effect but it also had a habit of producing nasty chemicals which rusted things like the hands. Are your hands rusty? Often times the rust progresses farther into the dial. But it's usually nice if we get a background history and as stated above when you are disassembling it did you notice any problems. rust also is an issue with wristwatches especially old ones because they don't have the gaskets and there were more likely to be out in the weather like on your wrist when it rains.

Ideally you like to figure out what the problems are before cleaning. If the problems that can be fixed you attempt to fix the problems unless of course you diagnose that cleaning will fix the problem. But the hour wheel the minute wheel and the rest of the wheels on the gear train other than the cannon pinion have to be free to turn. If they have corrosion rust or extremely bad old lubrication gluing them in place that's very undesirable.

 yes the unfortunate universal newbie tactic of if it doesn't work strip it down clean it again and it will somehow magically work. In other words cleaning fixes everything. If only it was that simple?

then thank you for the picture because the picture gives us a serial number serial number on the website below gives us nicer looking pictures of the same watch and a little background history.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/8345234

The picture on the original post was just the closest I could find online 🙂  When I get back home I'll get the exact serial number and a picture for you.

It's actually a pocket watch that had a glass crystal.  Hands are in good condition.  No obvious signs of rust on the movement.  Don't get me wrong, there are a few spots that are a little worse for wear, maybe some surface staining but in good condition otherwise.  The gears spin freely and smoothly.  The amplitude is also fine (not fantastic, maybe 200 degrees, but for me, that's a personal record for a watch that wasn't working prior).

The condition didn't seem anything out of the ordinary.  Not broken or anything severe, just dirty and in need of TLC.

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2 minutes ago, GregG said:

the cannon pinion gets tough towards the bottom of its travel, but the hour wheel was tough the entire way.  

The cannon pinion should click down towards thd end. Hour wheel shouldnt be tight. Cant you remember how it came off. Is this your first watch repair, no other parts from another watch have been mixed up have they ?  Can you inspect inside the hour wheel ?

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2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The cannon pinion should click down towards thd end. Hour wheel shouldnt be tight. Cant you remember how it came off. Is this your first watch repair, no other parts from another watch have been mixed up have they ?  Can you inspect inside the hour wheel ?

I don't remember exactly because it was some time ago.  But if I had to make an educated guess, I'd say this: if it was tough going on, it was probably tough coming off too.  But plenty of watches that I've done had gunky parts that were difficult to remove until they were cleaned.  So it wouldn't strike me as unusual if a particular part took some effort to get off at first.  It's only in hindsight that it becomes important 😕.  It definitely hasn't been mixed with another part, it was in its own container away from any other parts.

Later I will take a closer look at the hour wheel.

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1 minute ago, GregG said:

I don't remember exactly because it was some time ago.  But if I had to make an educated guess, I'd say this: if it was tough going on, it was probably tough coming off too.  But plenty of watches that I've done had gunky parts that were difficult to remove until they were cleaned.  So it wouldn't strike me as unusual if a particular part took some effort to get off at first.  It's only in hindsight that it becomes important 😕.  It definitely hasn't been mixed with another part, it was in its own container away from any other parts.

Later I will take a closer look at the hour wheel.

Post some photos it will really help. Can be difficult for anyone diagnose without photos . Plus everyone likes to see so more will jump in and help you.

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3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Post some photos it will really help. Can be difficult for anyone diagnose without photos . Plus everyone likes to see so more will jump in and help you.

Yes, will do once I am home, thank you.

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Your Canon pinion is not down all the way at least it does not look that way? Usually when the Canon pinions are in place it's smooth on top years looks like it's up just to hear. A lot of times and you push them on they seem to be really well they take a lot of pressure sometimes so I don't think you're down all the way

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13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Your Canon pinion is not down all the way at least it does not look that way? Usually when the Canon pinions are in place it's smooth on top years looks like it's up just to hear. A lot of times and you push them on they seem to be really well they take a lot of pressure sometimes so I don't think you're down all the way

I think the cannon pinion came up when I took off the hour wheel because of the tight fit.

10 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi greg. Can you take a close up of the cannon pinion directly from the side instead of from slightly above it. Something looks odd about it, as though the top of it looks mushroomed. 

Sure, will do.... once I get home. 🙂

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2 hours ago, GregG said:

I think the cannon pinion came up when I took off the hour wheel because of the tight fit.

That is really interesting and troubling wording? The hour wheel should literally fall into place unless a course or sticky lubrication but it still should come on and off with almost no effort. So that required a lot of force to come off that is definitely going to be a problem.

Then you're servicing the watch your supposed to remove the cannon pinion  As there's things that need to be lubricated underneath it and inside of it basically. Deed you take it off we were cleaning the watch?

 

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15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi greg. Can you take a close up of the cannon pinion directly from the side instead of from slightly above it. Something looks odd about it, as though the top of it looks mushroomed. 

If you can make sure the cannon pinion is thoughly clean inside and out. And the hour wheel also inside, maybe a gentle clean inside with a smoothing broach might dislodge some old oil that maybe in there.  If after that then i think we can only assume that either the cannon pinion or the hour wheel is not from this watch. 

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22 minutes ago, GregG said:

Here is a side picture of the cannon pinion. I checked against another Waltham i have and it's the same shape.

A problem of watch parts especially vintage parts is watch parts can all look identical but the problem is they are fit to the components they go on. If you start swapping components around they will still look the same but they may not fit the same. Typically when this part goes down it's supposed to be even with the top the center wheel yours is not.

Now that the cannon pinion Is off you the 50 minute wheel it should fit nice and it shouldn't be tight it shouldn't take any forced to go on you can also put the hour wheel on the cannon pinion When they're often they should fit together but not tight they have to all move very nice and effortlessly. Then you can attempt to Push the cannon pinion On sometimes it takes a lot of force but it does have to go all the way down almost flush with the plate you don't what it super tight because it does have to be up off the plate just a little bit but yours still looked too tall than the hour and minute wheel can go back. Then you can test them without putting the hands and dial on the early enough the case of the watch and see how they feel when you go in the setting they shouldn't be so tight that you feel like you're going to break things.

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