Seiko mainspring barrel

[Tiny]

hello all I have turned my attention to my mainspring and while it was in great condition and very clean I have striped it down and cleaned it.

spring in good condition no bends and in tack.

now do I grease the walls and oil the spring or just grease the barrel wall ? 

[JohnR725]

you didn't say whether this was a manual wind or an automatic? Basically make sure the spring is nice and clean depending upon whose philosophy of mainspring lubrication you look at. If it's an automatic you put breaking grease on the outer barrel wall of suitable type. Then if you're falling Seiko's recommendation they have a lubrication that they put all over everything if you could find it. Or you can put no lubrication on the mainspring because are supposed to be self lubricating otherwise you could put some 8200 grease. Remember to lubricate the barrel arbor also

[Tiny]

John thank you yes sorry it a self winding barrel.

I'm not looking forward to doing this by hand to be honest it's really eating at me and it's anti clock wise or left handed wind 6# left hand spring winder.

 

I'm looking at Bergeron  6# do I need a handle or can it be done with out the handle ? 

my funds are running really Low I was wondering if some kind soul would wind this up for me if I paid them to do it. just a thought

[JohnR725]

the mainspring winding issue is kind of a universal if she was Seiko is. I did a quick search online because others have done this before us and hear there's suggesting a number seven of course left-handed. of course it does depend on which Seiko barrel you have C could measure the diameter and look at the winders themselves and get one that's just a little bit smaller so will go in. But maybe better not read all the text it looks like it can be an interesting process which it really shouldn't be that bad but.

https://www.thewatchsite.com/threads/bergeon-mainspring-winder-07-update.255746/

 

[Tiny]

o'bugger i've ordered the wrong size i've ordered a 6 when it should be a 7 i suppose 1mm is not to much of a size difference 

 

[grsnovi]

@Tiny Maybe the next one you work on will need the 6...

[Tiny]

So I've watch this youtube video and I think he is putting far to much grease on and in side his barrel I thought you wiped the oil on the spring as a thin film and just add three points of grease to the barrel wall 

so you are not watching all the video time stamp 8.20 and 12.18

[aac58]

The winder number you need depends on the barrel you're working with. For example, if you're working with a 7xxx Seiko movement, then you need a #6 winder with a left handed arbor, for a 61xx/63xx movement you'll need a #7 winder with a (#7 or #6) right handed arbor.

I'm using the winder without a handle. I wish I had one, but it is not a must.

About the grease, as always there are many techniques, some use a pice of watchmaker paper to spread a film of grease along the spring and some install the spring dry and then put four dots of grease on top of it. I personally put four dots of breaking grease on the barrel wall and then install the spring with the film of grease on it.

Edited May 11, 2022 by aac58

[Paul80]

3 hours ago, Tiny said:

So I've watch this youtube video and I think he is putting far to much grease on and in side his barrel I thought you wiped the oil on the spring as a thin film and just add three points of grease to the barrel wall 

so you are not watching all the video time stamp 8.20 and 12.18

I see in the video he uses 8201 as a breaking grease, not the first time I have seen this on YouTube videos.  8201 is not listed as a breaking grease.

Anyone got any thoughts on this

[Kalanag]

All brake greases have a content of dry lubricant such as graphite, MoS2 or PTFE. The 8201 is a grease with MoS2. The wholesaler Flume says: „For switch springs, levers, pins, automatic main springs.“

Edited May 11, 2022 by Kalanag

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, grsnovi said:

Maybe the next one you work on will need the 6.

it would be a real nice world if we only needed one main spring Winder. The reality is you probably won't use every size in the set but having a set is nice. At work we have the complete Bergeron set. Then the Bergeron ETA set size for specific calibers. Mainly the big differences is the handles they have to be the right size to fit the center part the white spring is don't like things that are too big or too small. Then there is the older set for the blued steel Springs which have a much more aggressive hook on the end. Typically if you use those on the modern white Springs you might not actually Billy got off because it's sticking out too far inside. Then I have one more set entirely different for pocket watch Springs.

but you would think we'd have enough and we don't. Because occasionally Springs won't fit what they're supposed. Today's fun was a Waltham that too small for my set and the center part was too big for the standard sad I think I had to use the older set as it was the only way to grab the center part I do remember having both sets out and having to pick and choose. Unfortunately you can't have enough watch repair tools as you're always going to be short of something.

4 hours ago, Tiny said:

So I've watch this youtube video and I think he is putting far to much grease on and in side his barrel I thought you wiped the oil on the spring as a thin film and just add three points of grease to the barrel wall 

lubrication of anything in horology is interesting subject because everyone has a different opinion for variety of reasons.

52 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

I see in the video he uses 8201 as a breaking grease

that is a really interesting choice for breaking grease? This is basically the 8200 classic mainspring grease with a little bit of Molybdenum bisulfide (MoS2) which basically makes it a really nice high pressure lubricant and not really a breaking grease at all. It may be because he uses so little of it that's why he gets way with that if you use too much I think you'd have premature slipping.

third link below is your lubrication website. Like for instance he lubricated the harbor with and he gives you the number which you find out is really the HP 1300 lubricants. Which is a interesting choice because it has a problem? if you look on the lubrication website and download the lubrication chart as it's only place I can find this on the bottom of the chart you find this The Synt-HP oils (9101, 9102, 9103, 9104) are preferentially in use for ruby bearings. For brass bearings, we recommend Microgliss D-4 or D-5. which becomes interesting because in arbor is made out of steel and typically the barrels are made out of brass and they're not recommending the HP oils? Which works out fine in my case because I don't use oil on the arbor I use 9504 which is a high pressure grease. then yes the maker of the lubrication is telling you to do something different than everyone else in Swatch group maybe they didn't get the memo?

We've covered the lubrication of barrels before that's what the first link is but you have to scroll way down to get the lubrication parts I just reposted it all here.

the images come out of an Omega document conveniently Omega watermarks all the corners with where it came from so I just knew about the images to avoid complications. They have a document on what they call recycling the mainspring. Typically I can a Swatch group service center they do is replace the entire barrel. On modern white Springs typically they do not use lubrication on the mainspring itself. They do use of breaking grease P125 properly applied. Then they lubricate the arbor with and yes I know they didn't get the memo if there was one HP 1300.

then missing because a in snip out all the images a whole bunch of stuff on checking the barrel checking the arbor fit checking that you have the proper end shake. In other words you didn't bend the lead when you're moving it. Then the cleaning procedure. The mainspring is wiped off with a lint free cloth no lubrication's applied.

Then there is the interesting thing the barrel of courses washed in the cleaning machine and afterwords the drama arbor and led have epilam applied. We've discussed epilam on this group somewhere multiple pages basically it's there to prevent the spread of oil. I have a suspicion without proof that the HP oils tend to spread on anything other than Ruby jewels and steel. I think that's what the cryptic meaning of the quotes on the bottom of the lubrication chart on the website is telling us. Which is why I don't worry about oil and I use grease.

then in his video when he puts the arbor in using tweezers ideally you should use a pin vice and they actually makes special pin devices just for arbors. Because they don't always going in as nice as that and if you're holding a really tight with tweezers arbors can really fly.

the second link has a video it shows what happens if the breaking grease is too strong. Towards the end he lubricates with something you were never going to get which is Rolex breaking grease. My understanding from somebody uses it yes they use lots of it exactly as he shows. My experience if you did the same thing with P125 because I asked somebody who did not tell the truth on how much or how little I should be using if you use that much the mainspring will barely slip at all. Which is why the Omega document recommends small amounts evenly spread.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/9982-eta-2892-a2-automatic-works-what-else-can-i-do/

https://youtu.be/7KNTrHVD088

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en

[Tiny]

John first I have to just say what a detailed and wonderful reply we are really lucky to have someone so well informed and with such knowledge.

I do hope you didn't spend to much time replying to my post, I hope a lot of it was copy and paste

thankyou so so very much for taking the time to reply to my post 

 

James 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Tiny said:

John first I have to just say what a detailed and wonderful reply we are really lucky to have someone so well informed and with such knowledge.

I do hope you didn't spend to much time replying to my post, I hope a lot of it was copy and paste

thankyou so so very much for taking the time to reply to my post 

 

James 

Hiya Tiny. John is an absolute gem dont you think. Worth his weight in gold.

[Tiny]

Yep I was going to say I owe him a drink or two BUT I've just seen where he lives but if he sends me his paypal email I will send him a pint or two 

[gbyleveldt]

On 5/11/2022 at 12:17 AM, Tiny said:

o'bugger i've ordered the wrong size i've ordered a 6 when it should be a 7 i suppose 1mm is not to much of a size difference 

 

I’ve mentioned here a few times on the forum. I use a #7 arbour and a #6 winder it works fantastic for these 7xxx main barrels. You can also use a #7  arbour and #7 winder, but the #7 winder is a little thicker for comfort. Also, you need a flat washer spacer when using a #7 winder to space the spring enough to make proper contact with the hook in the winder. And remember you need left hand (blue) winders. I use a super thin layer of 8200 on the spring prior to installation and then 8217 as a braking grease on the inside barrel.
 

I’ve made two videos showing it working, although I can do up a detailed video if you’d like?

Edited May 12, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[aac58]

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Edited May 12, 2022 by aac58

[Tiny]

have I trashed my main spring.

I was fitting my mainspring for two or three  time when on the third time it sprung open again but this time I didn't get away with out kinking it in three places. I managed to remove most of the the kinks by rubbing it along a screwdriver but their was a little bit of evidence that there was a kink in it. 

 

Really not as easy as it looks on marks video 

 

should I replace the spring or chance it. The kinks are in the end where it's near the barrel walls.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, Tiny said:

have I trashed my main spring.

I was fitting my mainspring for two or three  time when on the third time it sprung open again but this time I didn't get away with out kinking it in three places. I managed to remove most of the the kinks by rubbing it along a screwdriver but their was a little bit of evidence that there was a kink in it. 

 

Really not as easy as it looks on marks video 

 

should I replace the spring or chance it. The kinks are in the end where it's near the barrel walls.

 

 

What did you use to insert the spring T ?

[Tiny]

I have a winder but the spring is still on it.

I have just read that while hair springs can be repaired it's a  bit different with mainspring to much force 

[oldhippy]

How much lubrication does he think is needed. That is way to much.  

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Tiny said:

Really not as easy as it looks on marks video 

This unfortunately is a classic problem in watch repair the assumption that watch repair is easy. Mark is an expert at watch repair he's going to make everything look easy. Typically any time you see a YouTube video on watch repair nobody's going to want to look stupid they're going to make everything look easy and wonderful.

The unfortunate reality of watch repair is you're going to break and destroy things. This is why in school situations they typically have practice movements and they spend lots and lots of time practicing on the same disposable movements. They don't jump in and start working on live patients after one watch. To be good at watch repair you have to practice a lot to be honest to be good at watch repair you have to practice continuously all of us are currently practicing were all getting better.

Then I assume this is a practice watch is it not?  You still need to practice putting the mainspring in you need to perfect her techniques so you can put it in without destroying it. Technically you have destroyed it but you can still practice with this it gets expensive if you have to keep buying new springs and destroying them so practice with this one until you get it in a perfecter technique and yes it probably will be an issue but the practice will be well worth it for the future.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 5/10/2022 at 11:17 PM, Tiny said:

o'bugger i've ordered the wrong size i've ordered a 6 when it should be a 7 i suppose 1mm is not to much of a size difference 

 

Been there done that T. It didnt end well. The fit is the best you can get if you want it to go smoothly 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Tiny]

can anyone recommend a spring that is say £3-4 new left hand wind I can buy to practice with to use in a  size 6 or 7 winder. I have opened my spare barrel and the spring is kinked it two places and that's before I remove it from barrel so I have ordered another movement but I need to practice I can get to the double end but finding it hard to feed it bur I think I have a solution for this bend a small bit of soft soldering wire in a (c) to trap it so I can feed it without stopping.

 

Tiny 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Tiny said:

new left hand wind

You don't have to buy the special left and wind mainsprings because they don't exist. The left and the right Springs are identical. It just means that one goes in the barrel one direction and the other goes in the barrel the other direction.

As you don't need a special left-handed mainspring that doesn't exist I would look at eBay for generic mainsprings as you don't need to buy one for a specific watch you just need an approximate size range and eBay tends to be pretty good at finding mainsprings

[Tiny]

@JohnR725

Thank you for the information I do have another Movement coming in the post, should arrive end of the week.

I do  have a observation from my practice on winding springs, I hope you can answer. So I had my second spring that was damaged from the start yes it had two kinks in it from the start so I went from having a spare spring to a practice spring but when I tried to use it as a practice spring I noted that it was slipping on the winder arbor, I could hear a click in side and it stopped advancing inside the winder so not only a kinked spring but also a stretched spring  where the arbor is fitted. 

so this would I think have an affect when winding the spring when the watch is all restored and surely running poorly. How would this problem be solved. would it just be the case of replace.

Tiny