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Cmmb8519

ETA 2892-A2 Automatic Works - what else can I do?

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Hi all

I just recently finished servicing two Omega Speedmaster Reduced (equipped with the ETA 2892-A2 coupled with chrono module Dubois Dépraz 2020) for a couple of friends and both watches are having the same issue. I'm an amateur and just service watches for family and friends.

The automatic work is not fully winding the movement and both watches are stopping after 6 days of use. Very curious that the two watches are showing exactly the same behavior!!

I have tried everything and I'm not being able to get the automatic work to wind the watches for long period of time without the need to give it a manual wind. What else can I do? People wearing the watches are quite active and don't have the same issue with other automatic watches.

See below a measure of the timegrapher for 6 days of wearing the watch without manual winding (except for first day):

  Rate Amplitude
Day 1 (full manual winding) +20 299
Day 2 +13 280
Day 3 +7 261
Day 4 -23 238
Day 5 -12 211
Day 6 Stopped

 

Some info regarding the service:

- All parts were carefully washed and carefully oiled as per ETA technical chart

- Replaced mainspring with new one ordered from Cousins (GR25341X). I measured both new and old mainsprings and they are they are the same

- Replaced reversing wheel with new one ordered from Cousins

- Checked the oscillating weight and bearing and all seems fine. There is not looseness and it all seems very aligned and in place

- Oiled the oscillating weight bearing with 4 very small drops of Moebius 9010 on 4 of the metal spheres (don't have much experience on this one, hope it is ok)

- All the automatic work seems to work perfectly when I manually tested the rotation of the oscillating weight with the movement out of the case

Only thing I did not replace yet is the bearing of the oscillating weight. I'm reluctant to do so since current one seems to be just fine and I don't to want spend money for a part that seems to be just fine.

What else can I do? 

Many thanks

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It seems that the Auto is not functioning correctly. I used to get this issue until I started using 8951, Fixodrop (Epilame) for the reversing wheels and auto parts. I also have a rotary watch tester that I run auto's on for 48 hours just to double check all is OK. I believe Eta recommend another solution for their reversing wheels but sorry can not remember it's name. 

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2 hours ago, clockboy said:

It seems that the Auto is not functioning correctly. I used to get this issue until I started using 8951, Fixodrop (Epilame) for the reversing wheels and auto parts. I also have a rotary watch tester that I run auto's on for 48 hours just to double check all is OK. I believe Eta recommend another solution for their reversing wheels but sorry can not remember it's name. 

I follow this with great interest. The enhancing effect of proper cleaning and oiling is undisputable but to this extent is news to me. Regards joe

 

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Since all parts look ok it is possible that they are, but something is interfering with the oscillating weight? Perhaps caseback rubbing very lightly in certain positions? 

Do you have access to a cyclotest? This would completely rule out wearing/ activity patterns, since this can be influenced by so many factors, the cyclotest is a nice consistent baseline. The Chinese ones are cheap and do the job nicely, worth investing if you work on a lot of watches.

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Thanks all.

 

I have Lubeta V105 at home but did not use it on the reversing wheels since I'm assuming they come lubricated from the factory. Do you think that is not the case?

 

I will look at the cyclotest and double check any rubbing on the case back. I don't think this is the situation but will check.

 

Could it be the fact that I replace the mainspring and it is not exactly the same? I ordered it to Cousins UK for the ETA 2892 movement so it should be fine ... I hope!

I measured the old mainspring: Height=1.04; Thickness=0.115; Length=450

The order of the mainspring from CounsinsUK shows: 1.05x0.115x420

So the mainspring should be fine ... I think!

 

I'm still confused with the fact that I service both watches and they are showing exactly the same issue ... what could have gone wrong on both that is making the watch stopping after 6 days of use if not manual wind???

 

Thanks all 

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I would give both watches full manual wind, let run at rest on bench  if they run like30hrs,  faulty winders is highly probable, Listen for sound of sudden power discharge inside the barrel while winding. 

If at full manual wind they run for six hours, the power source and thereon are to be suspected, either springs are weak or rub against the barrel on the inside , the barrel lid if not fit level can rub aginst the mainplate or barrel bridge.

The free rotation of each wheel in the winder and power transfer to ratchet.

Having said all this, I like all agree with you, both watches acting alike is most SUSPECIOS.wrong M/S or reversing wheels,

Regards joe

 

 

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I forgot to suggest, try installing the barrels without lid.
 
Thanka very much Joe.
Are you suggesting to install the mainspring and assembly the watch without putting the lid on the barrel? Apologies, but just checking i understood it right

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Yes that is what I am saying. 

Assuming the spring you received are of larger width scratching the barrel from inside.

In which case lubrication or serial number of grease wouldn,t help much.

If my lidless idea do not appeal, test with one of the old springs.

Regards joe

 

 

 

 

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If the oscillaging weight turns, rocks back/ forth smoothly under it's own weight, the bearings are Ok.

That is the oscillating weight seperated from the movement. Hold the winders train assembly with tweezers, test the hanging oscilltaing weight, it should respond perfectly under own weight.

If not clear I can produce a picture.

 

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What is the Omega caliber number? Even though the movement is marked with a eta number there were sometimes variations between the Omega version. Then if you manually wind the watch up and set it someplace how many hours does it run? Then how did you lubricate the mainspring?

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If the oscillaging weight turns, rocks back/ forth smoothly under it's own weight, the bearings are Ok.
That is the oscillating weight seperated from the movement. Hold the winders train assembly with tweezers, test the hanging oscilltaing weight, it should respond perfectly under own weight.
If not clear I can produce a picture.
 
If i remove the automtic work from the movement the oscillating weight runs very freely. It reacts quite well by rotating due to own weight.

If coupled to the movement and if i use gravity to rotate it, the oscilating weight rotates half or maximum of 3/4 of full turn. It gets even harder to rotate if the watch is fully winded manually.

I'm inclined to think something is not well assembled in the barril spring or related parts.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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What is the Omega caliber number? Even though the movement is marked with a eta number there were sometimes variations between the Omega version. Then if you manually wind the watch up and set it someplace how many hours does it run? Then how did you lubricate the mainspring?
The two watches are from different generations. One is Omega movement 1140 (brass) and the other is 3220 (stainless stell).

I manually winded both yesterday and set it aside and both are running now for 24h and did not stop yet.

No lubrification on the mainspring. I bought it from counsinsuk and I'm assuming they come lubrificated from factory. Isn't that the case? If not what lub should i use?

I did lube the internal walls of the mainspring barrel with Moebius D5.

Many thanks

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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6 minutes ago, Cmmb8519 said:

No lubrification on the mainspring. I bought it from counsinsuk and I'm assuming they come lubrificated from factory. Isn't that the case? If not what lub should i use?

I did lube the internal walls of the mainspring barrel with Moebius D5.

So the mainsprings themselves are supposed to be dry lubricated. The barrel wall is supposed to have breaking grease. Then D5 is a very nice high pressure lubricant that very definitely does not qualify as breaking grease. So when the watch winds up with the automatic and lacking breaking grease instead using something nice and slippery the mainspring will release way too much energy. So the automatic mechanism is trying to compete against the mainspring that just isn't going to hold its energy it doesn't matter if the automatic is working or not it is fighting a losing battle here.

The 1140 Has a reserve power 43 hours and the 3220 reserve hours of 40 hours.

 

 

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The two watches are from different generations. One is Omega movement 1140 (brass) and the other is 3220 (stainless stell).

I manually winded both yesterday and set it aside and both are running now for 24h and did not stop yet.

No lubrification on the mainspring. I bought it from counsinsuk and I'm assuming they come lubrificated from factory. Isn't that the case? If not what lub should i use?

I did lube the internal walls of the mainspring barrel with Moebius D5.

Many thanks

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Thanks very much John. Great point. Will correct the lubrification.

The barrel inside walls on this movement has some grooves that seem to hold the spring from releasing power too easy. When i manually wind the watch i can fell that it winds fully and when it is full i can listen the mainspring passing the groove to release pressure. It seems to me (not sure though) that the mainspring stays in place until fully wind (when i manually wind it). Do you it can have a different behaviour when it winds via the automatic works and it is loosing power at the same time that it winds?

Do you have a brand of beaking grease that you would recommend?

Many thanks for your commenys and time on this.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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The watch companies are interesting ideally they would like you to replace the entire barrel. So for eta  no mention of mainspring lubrication at all. Omega is suggesting for the 1140 the mainspring is different then the eta  2892-A2.  The tech guide for the 3220 which I'm attaching gives a different newer number. Then with this number according to bestfit It will work in all those other watches none of which are a eta.   so there doesn't appear to be a cross reference listing between Omega and eta  suggesting there different mainspring is or just that we don't have a cross reference listing.

Then the sending off those grooves and making a nice smooth barrel is not in your best interest if those were the grooves the factory put there in the first place. So lubrication guidelines images attached the recommended lubrication currently is KLUBER P125.  Then there recommending surface treatment which Omega's really big on for the entire  barrel other than the spring. Also the arbor is to be lubricated with HP 1300 which is the modern version of your D5. Also image attached if you purchased a brand-new barrel they do recommend lubricating the arbor from the outside.

I'm attaching YouTube video links the first one is a test to see if your ball bearing assembly is working correctly. The second one explains what happens if the mainspring doesn't slip. Note the lubrication that he's using is different it's a Rolex lubricant none of us are ever going to get this and yes that is the proper quantity for the Rolex lubricant. Note do not apply that much lubrication if you're using something other then the Rolex lubricants you'll regret it. For instance if you use more of the P125  recommended you'll find out that it's a way way too sticky and it holds too well.

 

770/282   MAINSPRING   722322020102

OME 3220
OME 1138
OME 3602
OME 1140
OME 1141
OME 1143
OME 3601

http://www.primrosesupplies.com/Swiss Tech Guides/Omega tech Guides/3220.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kafxnxt0EZY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KNTrHVD088&t=

mainspring barrel P125 4.JPG

mainspring barrel P125 3.JPG

mainspring barrel P125 2.JPG

mainspring barrel P125 1.JPG

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So if wound manually ( strong force) the movement runs happy 24 hours and beyound.

 But the autowinder ( not as strong as manual) fails at six hours of wind.

The barrel has no problem holding and releasing plenty of power.Autowinder and barrel together can,t do better than six hours.

Are grooves designed or sign of friction/weardown? After this is known, a picture showing them grooves helps decide wheather grease or new barrel is the way to go.

I don,t have you tube, those who do please help better describe the issue.

Regards

 

 

 

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I would suggest keeping it simple.

 

If the watch is running fine on manual wind, there is no problem within the barrel.

The problem lies within the auto winding mechanism.

 

My suspicion lies in the reversers.

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44 minutes ago, jaycey said:

I would suggest keeping it simple.

 

If the watch is running fine on manual wind, there is no problem within the barrel.

The problem lies within the auto winding mechanism.

 

My suspicion lies in the reversers.

Wrong reversers?   The only test I can think of is putting back on the old reversers and observe, however, wrong reversers for both watches is somewhat unlikely.

Perhaps a closeup pic of reversers in and out of the winder helps and one showing old and new ones for comparison also of arbor holes. 

What test method do you suggest?

Regards joe

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The watch companies are interesting ideally they would like you to replace the entire barrel. So for eta  no mention of mainspring lubrication at all. Omega is suggesting for the 1140 the mainspring is different then the eta  2892-A2.  The tech guide for the 3220 which I'm attaching gives a different newer number. Then with this number according to bestfit It will work in all those other watches none of which are a eta.   so there doesn't appear to be a cross reference listing between Omega and eta  suggesting there different mainspring is or just that we don't have a cross reference listing.
Then the sending off those grooves and making a nice smooth barrel is not in your best interest if those were the grooves the factory put there in the first place. So lubrication guidelines images attached the recommended lubrication currently is KLUBER P125.  Then there recommending surface treatment which Omega's really big on for the entire  barrel other than the spring. Also the arbor is to be lubricated with HP 1300 which is the modern version of your D5. Also image attached if you purchased a brand-new barrel they do recommend lubricating the arbor from the outside.
I'm attaching YouTube video links the first one is a test to see if your ball bearing assembly is working correctly. The second one explains what happens if the mainspring doesn't slip. Note the lubrication that he's using is different it's a Rolex lubricant none of us are ever going to get this and yes that is the proper quantity for the Rolex lubricant. Note do not apply that much lubrication if you're using something other then the Rolex lubricants you'll regret it. For instance if you use more of the P125  recommended you'll find out that it's a way way too sticky and it holds too well.
 
770/282   MAINSPRING   722322020102
OME 3220
OME 1138
OME 3602
OME 1140
OME 1141
OME 1143
OME 3601
http://www.primrosesupplies.com/Swiss Tech Guides/Omega tech Guides/3220.pdf


1941230479_mainspringbarrelP1254.JPG.50ce5803215ab089566219f874384660.JPG
1312325888_mainspringbarrelP1253.thumb.JPG.b4ae7c81d2ad31379a8de4c3f2a5e189.JPG
1233939647_mainspringbarrelP1252.thumb.JPG.343def8a6cd349fff160f6b45762a5c6.JPG
1665361729_mainspringbarrelP1251.thumb.JPG.3eafb3a21924bc8637a218722a07092a.JPG
Thanks very much John. This is great information!

Kluber P125 only sells in 5g and can get quite expensive. Would you consider Moebius 8213 as an alternative?

Thanks again.

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Remove the auto wind module.
Disassemble, thoroughly clean everything apart from the reversers.
Meticulously peg-out every pivot hole.

Re-assemble.
If the old reversers were working fine, install them.
Do not lubricate the rotor bearings at this stage.

Test...if ok swap in the new reversers. Test...if ok tiny drop of 9010 on 2 rotor bearings. Test.


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Are you able to downloaded attached file?

I tested the oscilating weight (dissassembled from the remaining of automatic works train) to check how much time it rotates. I put it on the vertical and gave it a half rotating push.
It takes 1-2 sec to stop! Does not seem right, does it?

I used basic method of put it in pegwood, but tried to handle it as much as possible in vertical. Even if the test setup is not the best i would assume it would rotate for more time.

I washed the oscilating weight with the bearing installed in the ultra sound machine and after dried put 4 drops of 9010 on the metal spheres.

Thoughts?

Many thanks http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5bd2ed3b99852/20181026_212210.mp4

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