Seiko 5606 and Omega 625

[Nucejoe]

37 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Just saw the vid above, this is most likely  due to lack of end shake or something is binding, 

DO YOU KNOW HOW TO CHECK THE END SHAKE.

Will you also show a side view pic of hairspring the coil could be touching something, a vid of coil as you blow woth puffer helps the most. 

Regs

Loosen the cock screw a turn or two, see it it frees the balance.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, suomaf said:

Maybe its time for donor movement?

The problem with watch repair is cleaning doesn't fix everything. Throwing the current watch in the trashing getting a new movement isn't really a way of learning watch repair we really should fix the one you have .

There's something is puzzling me? You can get all is really wonderful pictures of the balance wheel when it's out of the watch but the balance wheel in the watch she took the picture at arms length why? We need to see the balance wheel in the watch and we need to see it with the same kind of detail almost that you had of the balance wheel out of the watch they hairspring is a little out of center but that's not a problem we need a decent picture sideways we need to see where the hairspring is is it flat because of it's not flat and it's touching the balance arms of the balance bridge that is definitely an issue but we can't see that for many your pictures I is that?

[suomaf]

Thanks guys. I really do not know what to say, helping someone who obviously does not know what they are doing. 

 

10 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

DO YOU KNOW HOW TO CHECK THE END SHAKE.

Will you also show a side view pic of hairspring the coil could be touching something, a vid of coil as you blow woth puffer helps the most. 

 

No I do not know how to check for end shake. The issues started to happen when I moved the regulator arm all the way to the left. The beat error would no longer be adjustable from 4.0 ms and then it seem just to slow down and stop altogether. 

Here is that video of the side view. Sorry if this is not the best angle, i spend 45 mins trying to get this video.

11 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

When it does swing does it move the pallet fork back and forth.

Have you checked for power at the escapement before putting in the balance assembly? 

There seems to be power going through the train and the pallet fork does go back and forth

11 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Loosen the cock screw a turn or two, see it it frees the balance.

I tried to do that. With no screw in and a tweezer pushing down in random places, it was able to spin.

 

[grsnovi]

When you moved the regulator is it possible that you shifted the balance staff out of its pivot?

End shake is the up/down play of along the axis of the shaft. It sounds as if your balance staff has zero end shake. That is the staff is effectively pinched between the upper and lower pivot jewels.

[suomaf]

 

 

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The problem with watch repair is cleaning doesn't fix everything. Throwing the current watch in the trashing getting a new movement isn't really a way of learning watch repair we really should fix the one you have .

Thank you for that. I am grateful that I am learning here.

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

There's something is puzzling me? You can get all is really wonderful pictures of the balance wheel when it's out of the watch but the balance wheel in the watch she took the picture at arms length why? We need to see the balance wheel in the watch and we need to see it with the same kind of detail almost that you had of the balance wheel out of the watch they hairspring is a little out of center but that's not a problem we need a decent picture sideways we need to see where the hairspring is is it flat because of it's not flat and it's touching the balance arms of the balance bridge that is definitely an issue but we can't see that for many your pictures I is that?

I am very sorry for that picture. I should have zoomed in a little more and provided a better picture.

Is this ok?

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, suomaf said:

tried to do that. With no screw in and a tweezer pushing down in random places, it was able to spin.

This does sound like a lack of endshake but it could also be the hairspring touching something and could also be a lot of other things as well.  I personally like to check the barrel and mainspring, the free running of the train , the escapement lock and unlock, and the balance performance all separately. If all seem fine then as a whole working in synergy with each other. You wouldnt drive a car if the engine wasn't producing enough power to move the car or if the gears didnt mesh and turn together or if the tranfer of power didn’t reach the kerb wheels or if you couldnt steer the car. You wouldnt look for a fault in the steering column or front axle or check the tyres if the engine lacked performance or ran lumpy. Same principle. If you suspect the balance assembly then dissconnect everything up to that point and test it separately

[suomaf]

Thanks for your reply @grsnovi

50 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

When you moved the regulator is it possible that you shifted the balance staff out of its pivot?

End shake is the up/down play of along the axis of the shaft. It sounds as if your balance staff has zero end shake. That is the staff is effectively pinched between the upper and lower pivot jewels.

 

I could have, I used a screw driver and I think it was a 45 degree downward push to the left. However I have taken the balance staff out and refitted it, making sure it is in the pivot holes.

 

 

Thank you @Neverenoughwatches

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This does sound like a lack of endshake but it could also be the hairspring touching something and could also be a lot of other things as well.  I personally like to check the barrel and mainspring, the free running of the train , the escapement lock and unlock, and the balance performance all separately. If all seem fine then as a whole working in synergy with each other. You wouldnt drive a car if the engine wasn't producing enough power to move the car or if the gears didnt mesh and turn together or if the tranfer of power didn’t reach the kerb wheels or if you couldnt steer the car. You wouldnt look for a fault in the steering column or front axle or check the tyres if the engine lacked performance or ran lumpy. Same principle. If you suspect the balance assembly then dissconnect everything up to that point and test it separately

Agree with everything you mentioned. Is this the right way to check if the barrel and mainspring and the train is working? I am waiting on some new mainsprings to arrive so I could swap them out. I know it was running fine until I decide to "regulate" it. More like destroy it. It is a learning experience and I am grateful to everyone here willing to take time out to teach and advise.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, suomaf said:

Thanks for your reply @grsnovi

 

I could have, I used a screw driver and I think it was a 45 degree downward push to the left. However I have taken the balance staff out and refitted it, making sure it is in the pivot holes.

 

 

Seperate checks suomaf. Can you test the balance without the palletfork in for us . 

22 minutes ago, suomaf said:

Thanks for your reply @grsnovi

 

I could have, I used a screw driver and I think it was a 45 degree downward push to the left. However I have taken the balance staff out and refitted it, making sure it is in the pivot holes.

 

 

Thank you @Neverenoughwatches

Agree with everything you mentioned. Is this the right way to check if the barrel and mainspring and the train is working? I am waiting on some new mainsprings to arrive so I could swap them out. I know it was running fine until I decide to "regulate" it. More like destroy it. It is a learning experience and I am grateful to everyone here willing to take time out to teach and advise.

 

 

Testing the snapping back and forth of the pallet fork will indicate some power transfer but can only give you a guess as to how much power is delivered.  I like to test power output further back ie. Without the pallet in. You should see some very free running of the train wheels after a few winds on the barrel ie. No sudden halt . You should have a nice steady long slow down of speed and some backspin on the escape wheel. When you have this you know it should be ok to move forward. But i actually test the balance at the very start of assembly as its easier to see how it performs with everthing out if the way you can also check and set up your beat error. This is more so important when working on a vintage watch with no regulator arm for the beat error. Check your beat error visually without relying on the timegrapher.  You may need to remove the train to do this if you feel happy about doing that  or you may just be able to see the centering of the impulse jewel between the backing pins without removing. Im not sure on your set up as i only work on vintage swiss watches. Nothing less than 40 years old.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[suomaf]

@Neverenoughwatches

This is the balance with the pallet fork taken out.

I will have a look at the things you suggested. Thank you very much again for the advice. This is my birth year watch from 1975. Picking up watch tinkering when you are closing in on 50 is challenging but rewarding

Edited May 15, 2022 by suomaf
Additional information

[Neverenoughwatches]

26 minutes ago, suomaf said:

Picking up watch tinkering when you are closing in on 50 is challenging but rewarding

Haha take it in your stride mate I'm 55. There are others on here much  older that can repair. Their knowledge is immeasurable, and their genuine kindness to help us is extremely appreciated X

53 minutes ago, suomaf said:

@Neverenoughwatches

This is the balance with the pallet fork taken out.

I will have a look at the things you suggested. Thank you very much again for the advice. This is my birth year watch from 1975. Picking up watch tinkering when you are closing in on 50 is challenging but rewarding

Ok mate. So at this point the issue has nothing to do with power delivery. You can see why i have asked you to break down the various aspects of this side of the watch and treat them separately. It makes identifying faults so much easier. We now need close inspection of the balance components to make sure these are all working together ok.  How is the hairspring looking from inside the watch. Is it touching anything, is it coning, is it contaminated or become magnetised ? Have a look at it ouside of the watch, from underneath. Flip the balance cock over to see if it looks concentric. Are any coils touching each other? Do the regulator arms look ok ? Post some close ups of the hairspring from the side in the watch and with the balance cock on its back .

[Nucejoe]

1- Hairspring's coil has coned and its highly likely to be rubbing on balance spoke,  The coil should be flat ,concentric, level and stand at the same height as its collet.

2- Loosen the cock screw, if the oscilator then runs !!      then the issue is lack of end shake.

Pivots and setting appear OK? 

Fork snapping , barrel power , power transfer through the gear train are all  unrelated to the issue here.

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Loosen the cock screw, if the oscilator then runs !!      then the issue is lack of end shake.

I think he tried this earlier Nucejoe. It did increase the time length of oscillation but still didnt seem great. So fault finding is heading in the right direction. Just a guess but the tilting action of the released cock is probably still reducing its running time. Time to workout what is causing the lack of endshake if that is what it is mate. If you have coning of the hairspring then this will need correction also

19 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

1- Hairspring's coil has coned and its highly likely to be rubbing on balance spoke,  The coil should be flat ,concentric, level and stand at the same height as its collet.

2- Loosen the cock screw, if the oscilator then runs !!      then the issue is lack of end shake.

Pivots and setting appear OK? 

Fork snapping , barrel power , power transfer through the gear train are all  unrelated to the issue here.

I think a lot of the problem Nucejoe is the inability for beginners to closely and fully inspect components. A microscope is a must imo.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[suomaf]

Hey guys,

 

So I guess this is what I should be checking and doing? 

This seems very scary but I will get a donor movement first and then give it a go.

 

Stephen

[ifibrin]

Looking at the oscillation of your balance wheel when blown with the puffer, it looks like it starts with decent amplitude, but comes to an abrupt stop after a few seconds… Normally in a well functioning system, the amplitude should slowly decrease, as it comes to a gradual stop…

Have you cleaned the balance jewels, on both the balance cock and main plate? Are there any cracks or chips on the balance jewels? How did you remove the shock springs? Is the hairspring rubbing on anything during oscillation? It may be difficult to get a clear video, but should be quite obvious visually when you look at it with a loupe. With your eye (and loupe) level at the balance wheel, use the puffer and blow at it. Watch the hairspring breathe in and out.

Edited May 16, 2022 by ifibrin

[suomaf]

Thank you for your reply @ifibrin

24 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Looking at the oscillation of your balance wheel when blown with the puffer, it looks like it starts with decent amplitude, but comes to an abrupt stop after a few seconds… Normally in a well functioning system, the amplitude should slowly decrease, as it comes to a gradual stop…

Have you cleaned the balance jewels, on both the balance cock and main plate? Are there any cracks or chips on the balance jewels? How did you remove the shock springs? Is the hairspring rubbing on anything during oscillation? It may be difficult to get a clear video, but should be quite obvious visually when you look at it with a loupe. With your eye (and loupe) level at the balance wheel, use the puffer and blow at it. Watch the hairspring breathe in and out.

I will have a look at it again under loupe this weekend. I have cleaned the balance jewels both on top and below. Removing the shock springs was a dangerous thing, but I did it in a plastic bag with tweezers and it only pinged in the bag twice. Thank you for your advice.

 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, suomaf said:

So I guess this is what I should be checking and doing? 

Right you are.   You have now understood why your oscilator doesn't want to move. You will see the unstressed geometry of the coil once you have the balance detached from the cock, only then you will know the real untrueness in the coil. 

 As this happened when you moved the regulator arm, the problem with the coil is as simple as the case shown in the vid that is  the coil can be only sloped , worst senario would be if every circle of the coil has bent as that would be a hopeless case of total coning and a pain to sort out. 

Good luck pal

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, suomaf said:

Hey guys,

 

So I guess this is what I should be checking and doing? 

This seems very scary but I will get a donor movement first and then give it a go.

 

Stephen

Steve. Hs manipulation is quite tricky for a beginner and Its very good that you want to try this for future issues . But i dont think this is your only problem at the moment. Other issues first. A watch can still run with  poor beat error and some hs problems.

12 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Steve. Hs manipulation is quite tricky for a beginner and Its very good that you want to try this for future issues . But i dont think this is your only problem at the moment. Other issues first. A watch can still run with  poor beat error and some hs problems.

Can we have a look at the hairspring in the watch from the side. Is the hs touching anything it shouldn't be. An abrupt stopping of the oscillator is pointing towards some kind of friction issue but not only. I would want to look for that first before any manipulation of the hs. Start from a simple standpoint before looking for a more complicated issue. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[suomaf]

23 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Right you are.   You have now understood why your oscilator doesn't want to move. You will see the unstressed geometry of the coil once you have the balance detached from the cock, only then you will know the real untrueness in the coil. 

 As this happened when you moved the regulator arm, the problem with the coil is as simple as the case shown in the vid that is  the coil can be only sloped , worst senario would be if every circle of the coil has bent as that would be a hopeless case of total coning and a pain to sort out. 

Good luck pal

 

Thank you very much. fingers crossed that I will not make it worse. I have seen that I can get this https://www.ebay.com/itm/331701408356 if I FUBAR it right up.

21 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Steve. Hs manipulation is quite tricky for a beginner and Its very good that you want to try this for future issues . But i dont think this is your only problem at the moment. Other issues first. A watch can still run with  poor beat error and some hs problems.

Can we have a look at the hairspring in the watch from the side. Is the hs touching anything it shouldn't be. An abrupt stopping of the oscillator is pointing towards some kind of friction issue but not only. I would want to look for that first before any manipulation of the hs. Start from a simple standpoint before looking for a more complicated issue. 

I will try to remove the train and just put the balance back in and zoom in to see what is causing things to stop. I think that perhaps when I adjusted the regulator arm, I might have bent or kink something so it is now coned and that is why it is rubbing against stuff. However, I will definitely check under the macro to try to see what the issue is and update.

 

Thank you all so much again for bearing with me.

 

I have 2 1975 Omegas 625 movements watches on the way to me, those things are a quarter? size of this movement and I am terrified and excited at the same time.

 

Stephen

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, suomaf said:

Thank you very much. fingers crossed that I will not make it worse. I have seen that I can get this https://www.ebay.com/itm/331701408356 if I FUBAR it right up.

I will try to remove the train and just put the balance back in and zoom in to see what is causing things to stop. I think that perhaps when I adjusted the regulator arm, I might have bent or kink something so it is now coned and that is why it is rubbing against stuff. However, I will definitely check under the macro to try to see what the issue is and update.

 

Thank you all so much again for bearing with me.

 

I have 2 1975 Omegas 625 movements watches on the way to me, those things are a quarter? size of this movement and I am terrified and excited at the same time.

 

Stephen

Coning can cause the oscillator  to come to a halt plus the coils maybe catching something. I've actually just had a thought, what did you use when you adjusted the reg arm ? If what you used had magnetised itself without you knowing it may have transfered magnetism to part of the balance assembly. Its possible that this might pull the coils upwards. Or you may have just pushed a loose stud down on the beat error arm while adjusting this would lower the outer coils, check that the stud screw is nipped up. You really need to see what the hs looks like from the side while in the watch.

2 hours ago, suomaf said:

FUBAR it right up.

On 5/16/2022 at 7:00 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha. I haven't heard that term for years. That and SNAFU .  

3 hours ago, suomaf said:

have 2 1975 Omegas 625 movements watches on the way to me, those things are a quarter? size of this movement and I am terrified and excited at the same time.

Haha brave man. 17.5mm movement. Good that you are excited about a new project, not so good to be terrified. Being anxious will go against your performance. Ok to be aware of what you are up agaisnt as this will bring you down to earth so you dont rush in striping parts off willy nilly as so often happens. But be confident with your approach and push your nerves to one side, because they will only hinder you. Easy for me to say but ive had plenty of practise through my working life, coming from someone who regularly had 20 acros holding up the back of a house. Fun days that i actually miss lol.

[suomaf]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 If what you used had magnetised itself without you knowing it may have transfered magnetism to part of the balance assembly. Its possible that this might pull the coils upwards. Or you may have just pushed a loose stud down on the beat error arm while adjusting this would lower the outer coils, check that the stud screw is nipped up. You really need to see what the hs looks like from the side while in the watch.

I have one of these de-magetizer that I got off aliexpress. Used it a few times, do not trust it. I use my brass tweezers and screw drivers to fiddle with the movement. To be honest I do not know if it has been magnetized and how to test for it. I could get one of those apps but I do not think they are very accurate at the levels we are talking about.

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha. I haven't heard that term for years. That and SNAFU .  

I guess it shows that we are not young pups.

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha brave man. 17.5mm movement. Good that you are excited about a new project, not so good to be terrified. Being anxious will go against your performance. Ok to be aware of what you are up agaisnt as this will bring you down to earth so you dont rush in striping parts off willy nilly as so often happens. But be confident with your approach and push your nerves to one side, because they will only hinder you. Easy for me to say but ive had plenty of practise through my working life, coming from someone who regularly had 20 acros holding up the back of a house. Fun days that i actually miss lol.

The chief finance minister has forbidden me to buy new watches and watch equipment, unless it fits in the box. So I got a box of 12 places, and any watch that I pick up off ebay or other auction sites, I can fix and it must fit in the box then I am allowed to buy them. Anything that does not fit needs to be given to friend and family. The 2 omegas were a cheap deal. both 1975s. Our birth-year watches. One for me and one for her. She did not say anything about her watches fitting in the box. I like loopholes. Picked both of these up for less than 300 USD

 

[JohnR725]

40 minutes ago, suomaf said:

I have one of these de-magetizer that I got off aliexpress. Used it a few times, do not trust it.

If it's the one you have in the picture you need to understand how to use it somewhere on the website we describe how to use this. Usually the generic is you put whatever is magnetized in the middle you push and hold the button and slowly pull it out to a distance of I don't remember how far away you have to go. Then I can't remember when you do in the watch movement whether you want to do it in two separate positions or multiple positions. But the key is you have to put it in the middle and then slowly pull it out as opposed to just putting it in pushing the button which conceivably will magnetize the item.

 

[suomaf]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

If it's the one you have in the picture you need to understand how to use it somewhere on the website we describe how to use this. Usually the generic is you put whatever is magnetized in the middle you push and hold the button and slowly pull it out to a distance of I don't remember how far away you have to go. Then I can't remember when you do in the watch movement whether you want to do it in two separate positions or multiple positions. But the key is you have to put it in the middle and then slowly pull it out as opposed to just putting it in pushing the button which conceivably will magnetize the item.

 

Thanks for that. I cannot find any instructions whatsoever and contacting the supplier on aliexpress was not much help either. So I just try to get anti magnetic tools and hope for the best.

[canthus]

Found this on yt.  Interesting but seems a bit brutal at times, but by a professional. Interesting way of solving coning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egCwtMMoOCU

 

[suomaf]

18 minutes ago, canthus said:

Found this on yt.  Interesting but seems a bit brutal at times, but by a professional. Interesting way of solving coning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egCwtMMoOCU

 

Amazing. The old master said do it too often and you have 2 hairsprings  But thanks So useful

[JohnR725]

I would really suggest if you watch the video would be to practice with some bigger hairsprings. Henry makes it look really really easy because he had a heck of a lot of experience doing this.