Waltham pocket watch model 1891 with missing roller jewel.

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Hi, I am Luis and I am learning and very excited about watch repairs. I've watched many videos about the topic and read many valuable information about watchmaking. I've repaired only 3 timepieces so far, one seiko5, one benrus, and one bulova. All this started when my wife gave me a watch for Christmas . I've always found intriguing the way a mechanical watch works and the more I learn the more I like it.

On the other hand, I am currently repairing a Waltham pocket watch. It has serial# 11597145 and the model is 1891e. As soon as I took the balance out I realized it has the roller jewel missing. I am attaching some pics so maybe you guys can help me out. I need to know where to find the right roller jewel because I know there are so many sizes. I would also like to ask if there is a way to attach the jewel without taking the roller plate from the staff. Please, any advice will be greatly appreciated. 

[watchweasol]

Hi  Indeed a problem but not insurmountable. Roller jewels can be purchased as an assortment but you will get many that you will never use.  I should try daveswatchparts.com  in the USA  who stocks elgin/waltham parts.  Cousins uk,  esslingers,  jules borel are all material houses who can also supply parts.   The pocketwatchdatabase.com is a source of data.

The watch is  seaside grade, Model 1891, Year 1902, size 0s all got from the data base.

You can fit the jewel using shellac, but by the look of it it was friction fitted

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Thank you for your prompt response Watchweasol. I will definetly try with daveswatchparts.com. 

Wow! I did not knnow there were some occasions the roller jewel was friction fitted. Makes sense because there were no signs of shellac. I'll keep you posted on the progression. Do you think I can mount the roller jewel without taking the roller plate from the balance staff?

[watchweasol]

That depends on how careful you are but I guess its possible but less risky if roller removed, If to do remove the roller mark its position with regard to the arms on the balace wheel, inpule pin is at a right angle to the arms..

 

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Thank you for all your advices. I already contacted daveswatchparts.com. Once I get the roller jewel I'll post some pictures here to keep you posted.

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Hi, I got the roller jewel from stsupply. They sell 700 random pallet stones and roller jewel for old american watches. I had to dive in to find the one that fits the roller table and palet fork. I also had to improvise and create a roller holder with a pair of tweezers because I don't have the right tool yet jjj. Below you'll see some pics.

[Luismartinezdecuba]

https://youtu.be/brwVESiPTtA

[watchweasol]

Well done   an inventive way around a problem .

[JohnR725]

On 4/6/2022 at 4:29 AM, Luismartinezdecuba said:

Wow! I did not knnow there were some occasions the roller jewel was friction fitted

As this is a single roller it was probably held In with shellac at least at one time it's probably washed off or disintegrated with time. Whenever you lose a roller jewel you should always search the movement if you're lucky you might find it. And yes some watch companies much later on like in the 40s when they change the production methods did use friction jewels but not a single roller like this.

On 4/6/2022 at 1:38 AM, watchweasol said:

problem but not insurmountable. Roller jewels can be purchased as an assortment but you will get many that you will never use.

You also have to be careful with which assortment you get because American pocket watches used two different lengths of roller jewel's depending upon whether was a single roller or a double roller. So basically out to find an assortment that has the longer length of jewels that you need for the single roller escapement's. Which is becoming harder and harder fine for the large size pocket watches.

Then just for future reference they do make special tools for sizing roller jewel's. Plus I threw in a few more pictures of what the tools would look like even though you didn't need the tools. More for future reference

 

[watchweasol]

Thanks John  very informative.  what publication did the pictures come from .

[JohnR725]

18 hours ago, watchweasol said:

what publication did the pictures come from

The quick unhelpful answer is they came out of PowerPoint presentation.  The problem is trying to remember which book I got it from a presentation done in 2012  Looks like I physically scanned a section in the book which narrowed it down to this book The Watch Repairer's Manual  by Henry B. Fried. Section that I scanned from can be found in the file below. The tool itself is mine and the others stuff the vintage some sort of vintage PDF catalog lurking somewhere in this computer.

File0097.PDF

[watchweasol]

Many thanks John  I have his book on electric watches must see if I can get the other one (watch repairers manual) , once again thanks.

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Hi watchweasol and JohnR725,

Thank you very much guys for your support, you are very knowledgeable indeed. Thanks for posting those pictures about the roller jewel setting tool, gauge, and acceptable tolerance illustrations. I am going to look for those tools because they make life easier jjj. I spent hours finding the right roller jewel under my microscope. I ended up with three stones, one was too big, it didn't fit the fork, the second fitted too tight and the last fitted with a tiny gap of play. I read somewhere that the gap should be of 0.02 mm, but since I don't have the gauge toll I just looked under the microscope and tried to select the best option possible. Question, Is there a possibility that the movement gets damaged if I placed a roller jewel thinner than what it's supposed to be(with gap bigger than 0.02mm)?

One more time, thank you very much, I am a neophyte on watchmaking and you all have made me feel very welcome. 

 

[JohnR725]

On 4/18/2022 at 3:13 AM, watchweasol said:

I have his book on electric watches must see if I can get the other one (watch repairers manual) ,

When I was in school this was the textbook we used definitely a good book to have.

Another interesting book to get is the bench practice book. I have the title page and the table of contents as it came in many versions which represents a problem. I've known a people purchasing it and you notice on the table of contents that some sections don't have numbers I'm guessing it's because this is the later version of this section got inserted in. So view of an earlier version you just not going to have that section at all. The one section I marked fixing bents hairsprings not that hairsprings ever get Damaged in watches but just in case they do it's a nice section on how to deal with that.

Then having actually met Henry definitely a very interesting person.

[JohnR725]

31 minutes ago, Luismartinezdecuba said:

Question, Is there a possibility that the movement gets damaged if I placed a roller jewel thinner than what it's supposed to be(with gap bigger than 0.02mm)?

The question you didn't ask obviously  if the jewel is too big that would be an issue worst case you could damage the fork. Too small I doubt it's going to damage anything but? You're probably going to see a loss of amplitude because it would change how the escapement's working.  In other words it changes the timing of things as the roller jewel is hitting the fork and unlocking the escapement there'd be a delay of the fork pushing on the roller jewel giving its energy. That would cause a loss of amplitude.

[Luismartinezdecuba]

 

I see John, it makes perfect sense. I placed the watch in a timegrapher  and it has an amplitude of +300 on some positions and on some others it's +230. It is also gaining time, like 5 minutes per day. I moved the regulator towards the Slow position, but it did not changed significantly. I also demagnetized it because when I took the balance out of the movement I noticed the hairspring was getting attracted by the balance arms. I demagnetized the entire movement for this reason. I also completely disassembled, cleaned and oiled the movement, but still it's gaining like 5 minutes per day on the dial up position. on some other positions it does not gain that much. Is it normal for a movement with over 100 years to gain time, or should I try to do something else. 

Thanks one more time for your support!!

Edited April 19, 2022 by Luismartinezdecuba

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Also, thanks very much for suggesting Henry B. Fried books. I'll search for them.

[watchweasol]

Hi John  thanks again for the information on the Fried books.  have to go and search now.

[mbwatch]

On 4/15/2022 at 1:48 PM, Luismartinezdecuba said:

Hi, I got the roller jewel from stsupply. They sell 700 random pallet stones and roller jewel for old american watches. I had to dive in to find the one that fits the roller table and palet fork. I also had to improvise and create a roller holder with a pair of tweezers because I don't have the right tool yet jjj. Below you'll see some pics.

 

 

 

I'm really impressed you were able to complete this repair as a novice, and it is giving me hope. I have an Elgin 6s where I broke the impulse jewel while trying to seat the balance without overbanking. I did just purchase a vintage roller warmer tool and I will be needing a staking set to get my balance reassembled. Fixing this $16 movement is going to cost me about $300 in tools, but it's a good reason to finally invest.