Rust on hairspring and the regulator pointer.

[bobolink]

I am working on an old pocket watch as a learning exercise.  After cleaning, its all in good shape, jewels, pivots, gears, even the mainspring.  But there is some rust on the hairspring and the regulator pointer.  I dont want to try replacing it, yet and want to try vinegar soak first. I do understand it can throw out the timing to remove rust like this.  Thoughts?

My other question is how measure to replace just the regular pointer?  I have reviewed replacement and measurement of the hairspring but I havent seen anything on how to measure / replace the regulator.  Any thoughts there?

PS: The watch has no identification on the face or internals.  No manufacturer or serial numbers.

[Nucejoe]

An image of the keykess helps identification.

I lost an overcoil in diluted vinegar in ultrasonic.

[bobolink]

Now I am really embarrassed.   I mixed up the 2 pocket watches I have.  The one I am referring to isnt unknown its a Bonheur with exposed balance wheel that has the rust. See the picture.  The thing about this is that before I disassembeled it, it really wanted to run with just a little air, but would never continue.   

See the photo.

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, bobolink said:

before I disassembeled it, it really wanted to run with just a little air, but would never continue.   

This doesn't meant its worse now. 

Each hairspring only pairs with the balance its on.

Balance should be detached from the bridge, then remove the hairspring to sort out then its rebuilding the balance complete with impulse in beat. 

Regulator arm just lift off, its a spring.  It can be polished.

[grsnovi]

With the hairspring removed and some tension in the mainspring, can you increment the movement by tweaking the pallet fork?

To my untrained eye, it appears that your regulator pointer is actually just a piece of what used to be the regulator pointer.

[bobolink]

I know that before I disassembled the watch even with the rust, the balance wheel would run for a few seconds when pushed with air.  I failed to check the fork after I removed the balance wheel.  So dont know yet.  

You are correct, its whats left of the regulator pointer :-). It looks like it had broken off and that piece missing I found inside the case.  But the regulator actually still seemed to work before I pulled it.  It moved at least left/right.  

[bobolink]

18 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

An image of the keykess helps identification.

I lost an overcoil in diluted vinegar in ultrasonic.

I am going to try a product I have used for other things outside of watches.  Its called EvapoRust.  Its different from Acid based products (of which Vinegar is one).  It works through a Chelation process (its molecules attach to rust molecules and detaches them from the ferrous material) so no change in theory.  Its water based and enviromentally safe.  So I dont think I have much to loose given the condition of the spring.  I may take out the regulator pointer first (or whats left of it) and just brush it clean. 

[Nucejoe]

Doesn't WD40 do the same?  

Will you keep us posted with the results you get.

[xyzzy]

I did that with a regulator arm that had rusted.  I used Metal Rescue, but I believe it's largely the same as EvapoRust.  It removed the rust ok.  It will often leave the metal with more or less of a matte gray color, depending on how long you leave it on.  I then polished the regulator using lapping paper.  It's easy to polish as the top is flat!

Not the greatest pictures, but before and after.

[praezis]

17 minutes ago, xyzzy said:

I used Metal Rescue, but I believe it's largely the same as EvapoRust. 

...and Coke. The active agent is phosphoric acid.

[xyzzy]

6 minutes ago, praezis said:

...and Coke. The active agent is phosphoric acid.

I don't think so.  It says no acids on the bottle and it doesn't seem to react with rust the same way phosphoric acid does.  The pH from the SDS is 6.0-7.0, neutral. Coke is supposed to be about 2.6.

[bobolink]

So  while I was moving the hairspring it just broke. So no removal needed   Now I need to replace it and I am at a loss for how to do that.  I have looked at sites that have hairsprings but since the brand is not listed, I dont know how to size it reasonably well (I say that because I am less concerned with it running perfect and more with it just running).

So anyone have suggestions on how to size a hairspring?  The watch is a 15S and they are not cheap so I dont just want to "buy and try it".  The pinion is in very good condition.  But how do I know if a collet will fit?  I know the "half the diameter" rule but strength is another unknown.  

Any thoughts out there?

Thanks

bob

 

[bobolink]

29 minutes ago, bobolink said:

So  while I was moving the hairspring it just broke. So no removal needed   Now I need to replace it and I am at a loss for how to do that.  I have looked at sites that have hairsprings but since the brand is not listed, I dont know how to size it reasonably well (I say that because I am less concerned with it running perfect and more with it just running).

So anyone have suggestions on how to size a hairspring?  The watch is a 15S and they are not cheap so I dont just want to "buy and try it".  The pinion is in very good condition.  But how do I know if a collet will fit?  I know the "half the diameter" rule but strength is another unknown.  

Any thoughts out there?

Thanks

bob

 

Adding a photo of the works and the writing on it.  Its a Bonheur with a visible balance wheel.  Dont know if this info can help me find a new hairspring.

[praezis]

37 minutes ago, bobolink said:

So anyone have suggestions on how to size a hairspring?

A topic that was already discussed here. But your real issue is: you need not just the right hairspring, but you have to make a Breguet coil one from it. This is where most (not only beginners) usually will fail 

Frank

[grsnovi]

Wouldn't it be easier at this point to try to find an entire balance assembly?

Between the regulator rusting/breaking, what else is on the point of no return? The pallet fork? The mainspring?

[bobolink]

Coming back to this question.  I have a replacement hairspring that I have installed on the pinion.  It is not going to give me anything close to a good watch but it may actually run.   The last big piece I am finding out is the regulator.  It is broken in half and I would actually attempt to make one (got good advice on this from another thread and used a feeler gauge to make a stem clutch, worked great)  but I found that the adjustment pin under the regulator has the hairspring threaded through it.  I know I cant make that unless someone has a suggestion.

PS: I know, there is a point you give up .

Suggestions are welcome.

Thanks all.

[bobolink]

6 hours ago, bobolink said:

Coming back to this question.  I have a replacement hairspring that I have installed on the pinion.  It is not going to give me anything close to a good watch but it may actually run.   The last big piece I am finding out is the regulator.  It is broken in half and I would actually attempt to make one (got good advice on this from another thread and used a feeler gauge to make a stem clutch, worked great)  but I found that the adjustment pin under the regulator has the hairspring threaded through it.  I know I cant make that unless someone has a suggestion.

PS: I know, there is a point you give up .

Suggestions are welcome.

Thanks all.

It also holds in the cap jewel just by snapping in place, there are no screws.  You can see the angles on the round portion that sit on top of the cap jewel.  Sigh,,,,

[bobolink]

I wanted to get back to all on this. I finally got the tools and pieces ( Presto tool, table jewels, table warmer, hairspring, etc.) I need for dealing with the whole escapement (still need the Timegrapher).  But I wanted to try it on a teaching watch first which I have.  I got a copy of Henry Frieds book "The Watch Repairers Manual"  it has an excellent section on this and sizing the table jewel.  I have another watch I was using as a teaching tool also needs a hairspring and table jewel.  I was able to remove the old spring, take off the table, and I am about to replace the roller jewel.  Its in place, just have to shellac it in.  Hardest part of all this so far was just picking up the roller jewel and getting it in place.  I tried for an hour with tweezers, no luck (i realize how impartant tweezer skills are).  I lucked out with the Presto tool designed for this.

Will see how it goes with the shellac and hairspring.

[grsnovi]

Good luck @bobolink