Balance wheel interchangeability?

[SndChsr]

Hello folks,

Hoping to get some info here. I'm working on an Elgin watch and the balance wheel is in a really bad shape. First off, I see that there are huge gauges all around the ring, so much so, that I could see it affecting the poise.

To make things worse, upon disassembly to my horror, I noticed that the roller table and the balance staff were attached to the balance wheel with a gigantic blob of shellac. After disassembly and cleaning I saw why. It seems the hole in the balance wheel where the staff is riveted in is slightly too large.

So, this brings me to my 2 questions.

1 - Is it advisable or feasible to close the staff hole in the balance wheel with a staking set the same way one would close the hole in a loose fitting barrel bridge when it is too large?

2 - Pocket Watch DB lists that only grade 50 has the same balance wheel part as the grade I'm currently working on. Can I use the balance wheel from the suggested grade 50 on my watch or would the hairspring from my watch need to be vibrated to the new balance wheel?

Thank you for any input into this mess!

[JohnR725]

On 3/22/2022 at 10:42 PM, SndChsr said:

Elgin watch

Always nice if you would give us a picture and its pocket watch a serial number or give us the make model etc.

As Elgin is pretty generic

On 3/22/2022 at 10:42 PM, SndChsr said:

balance wheel where the staff is riveted in is slightly too large

One of the interesting things with Elgin and a lot of the other American watch companies is staffing variations for the same part number. So conceivably somebody will attempt to insert the wrong sized staff with interesting results or maybe even use a staff that's too small.

Then no you can't practically close the hole because it's usually hardened steel. It be hard to close it super precisely and related to what I said above we need a replacement staff to see how that actually is going to fit if you close it and get the real staff you may find that you have to open it back up again.

On 3/22/2022 at 10:42 PM, SndChsr said:

grade 50 has the same balance wheel part as the grade

Super I get a clue which is balance wheel part? And somehow relates to grade 50?

Basically this brings up a problem because we don't have your serial number we don't have the link to the pocket watch database we can't look up the parts cross references I can't help you at all. But I give you a tiny help you to look up your parts at the link below but you can look up your cross references of their so it be nice if it give us your grade then I can go and look up the actual staff that goes in your balance and see if it came in variations and we can see what we can do to find a solution to the problem.

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

 

 

[SndChsr]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Always nice if you would give us a picture and its pocket watch a serial number or give us the make model etc.

As Elgin is pretty generic

One of the interesting things with Elgin and a lot of the other American watch companies is staffing variations for the same part number. So conceivably somebody will attempt to insert the wrong sized staff with interesting results or maybe even use a staff that's too small.

Then no you can't practically close the hole because it's usually hardened steel. It be hard to close it super precisely and related to what I said above we need a replacement staff to see how that actually is going to fit if you close it and get the real staff you may find that you have to open it back up again.

Super I get a clue which is balance wheel part? And somehow relates to grade 50?

Basically this brings up a problem because we don't have your serial number we don't have the link to the pocket watch database we can't look up the parts cross references I can't help you at all. But I give you a tiny help you to look up your parts at the link below but you can look up your cross references of their so it be nice if it give us your grade then I can go and look up the actual staff that goes in your balance and see if it came in variations and we can see what we can do to find a solution to the problem.

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

 

 

Hi John and thank you so much for the wealth of info.

The serial # for my watch is 10073272. It is a low production watch therefore I'd really like to make it run again. The part # for my balance wheel is 242. I think the staff is different for each grade, but the balance wheel is the same or so it seems. I already have a new staff, but this balance wheel is a fricking wreck.

Regards,

Marek

[LittleWatchShop]

I recently had to replace a balance complete on an Elgin cal 348. Perhaps I was lucky. Everything worked except timing. I had to replace timing screws and tweak with timing washers until I got it tuned in.

[JohnR725]

54 minutes ago, SndChsr said:

The part # for my balance wheel is 242. I think the staff is different for each grade, but the balance wheel is the same or so it seems. I already have a new staff, but this balance wheel is a fricking wreck.

Yes it might be a r wreck but It's still the balance wheel it came with the watch and it be nice to save it if possible.

Then according the pocket watch database at the second link you could have two different staffs? Then of course at least the pictures both staffs look different? Don't worry ill probably get worse? Why would I say such a silly thing like that? Before I get into why I said my silly thing the Golden rule and staff replacement is always measure the old and then measured the new and make sure they agree in this case you have a problem but still you want to know what you had in what you have just in case for some reason there to be a problem but what kind of problem could you have with an Elgin staff after all part numbers are very exact things unless you're talking American pocket watch parts

Okay according to the database you have either staff number 861 or 2532. Unfortunately I recognize the first number but fortunately the means I don't have to snip the images out again I've already done that. Okay should bill a figure out which staff you have really fast I'm attaching an image it probably is The 861 versus the 2532.

Okay one more image one of the minor little problems with American pocket watch staffs are pivots size. One part number multiple sizes of pivots but that's minor you can change the size as long as you don't have to make it bigger for some reason. It's too big you can use your lathe the reducing in size. Then there is another dimensions and the puzzling aspect is why your balance hole is so big because none of the staff seem to have variations for that?

I would measure your staff to see if it corresponds to the size of the table below. It's possible for your description that some unskilled person attempted to cut the staff out. Normally we just cut the hub off and try not to cut in the balance arms I suppose somebody might've tried to cut the entire staff out making the hole too big.

Then because I'm curious about the balance wheel staff all have to go look at other references? In case you haven't figured it out getting pocket watch parts could be a challenge because first Jeff to figure out what you are supposed to have and yes they come in variations.

Now for the confusion? Somewhere in the mess of images I snipped out the description of your watch and it tells us the class belongs to. Under the old parts system they were in classes then they switch to grades. I was conveniently go to skip over this brand at the class system your balance wheel fits in a whole bunch of other watches perhaps? Then in a newer parts book I looked up both the balance staff balance on the balance complete. Then we get a clarification that you really do have staff 861 as the other one is for a double roller and by the serial numbers you should have a single roller.

Then for the balance wheel against to be interesting because of course the same thing happens the balance complete whether it's a single roller or double roller. Then just the bare balance wheel notice the letter G after the part number. Possibly indicates that the balance wheel uses gold screws. Or it might be just Quincy dental it just a letter. As I scroll up the page I see another balance wheel with the exact same designation. Which of course conflicts with the pocketwatch database which says there's only one other watch that has this balance wheel.

Then what I really curious about is measure the dimensions of your staff and look at the staffing sizes I have and see how it compares.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/10073272

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/10073272/parts/Staff

 

[JohnR725]

On 3/22/2022 at 10:42 PM, SndChsr said:

I noticed that the roller table and the balance staff were attached to the balance wheel with a gigantic blob of shellac.

Oh dear I'll blame it on dyslexia it's one of those backwards things? I was thinking you had balance staff 861 for the single roller but it looks like your serial number came after and you're supposed to have a double roller staff?

Now the reason this comes up in my brain finally grass something I need a picture of your balance wheel but I really need a picture of your roller table?

I'm currently having a mental confusion here? So if you have a double roller balance wheel and somebody looked up the staff it's a single roller well it's not going to fit and what the heck you can do with the safety roller? Yes there's the minor problem of a double roller watch either has the double roller components put together like you typically see a modern Swiss watch or in the old days the roller was one part the safety roller was another. Which is why I need to see your roller table to see how bad I think things really are so if you attempted to take a double roller roller table and put it on a single roller staff you would have to use a heck of a lot of shellac because the whole is going to be so incredibly huge it's like a federal.

This is why unfortunately it's really important to have all of the technical information available at your fingertips to make sure you're ordering the right components because otherwise you can jump too long conclusions like perhaps I have sort of may be perhaps?

On the other hand none of this would change the balance wheels fitting to the staff that size appears to be the same for all of so pictures are needed and you need to verify from the data of which staff you really need and whether you even have the right staff plus if they tried to put the double roller on the single roller you may be missing your safety roller? It also be nice to get a picture the pallet fork in the watch her out of the watch would be just fine

 

[SndChsr]

John..than you so much for the wealth of info you have provided. I have to digest this hahahah. BTW, my watch is a single roller... at least that's how it arrived when I purchased it. 

Let me go over you answers one more time and I'll reply.

Sincere thanks,