Very low amplitude, Elgin 892

[Rhobin]

This is my first watch that was in a 'running' condition that I disassembled, cleaned and oiled.  It is branded as an Elgin 891, but also has the FHF 72 movement mark.

Prior to this watch, I have got hold of a few scrap movements to practice disassembly/assembly.  I'm glad I did that as I've already mangled a few hair springs, and bent a few pivots by being a bit too clumsy.

I am just starting out, and I've not got a mainspring winder, so I left the barrel alone to see if I could at least take most of a simple movement apart and put it back together and it still run afterwards.

The watch wants to run, but the amplitude is very low and will stop after a few minutes.  The watch ran better before I touched it, so it points to something I've done. 

One thing of note, when I apply winding pressure to the crown, the amplitude increases to a healthy looking level, but soon reduces back down once I release the pressure.

My question is, would this point towards a weak mainspring, or do I have to take it on the chin and accept I've probably bent a pivot somewhere?  The mainspring is fully wound.

My cleaning process is using lighter fluid at this point, and I've used 9010 on the pivots, and D5 round the barrel arbor.  I created a peg-wood tool to remove/replace the kif shock-spring, as I've seen here/you-tube, which seemed to go well.

 

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Rhobin said:

The watch ran better before I touched it, so it points to something I've done. 

Outstanding? You've learned an important lesson that the problem might be just you or perhaps you adding to the problem. So many newbies failed to grasp that they very likely are the major problem with why there watches not running.

7 hours ago, Rhobin said:

y question is, would this point towards a weak mainspring, or do I have to take it on the chin and accept I've probably bent a pivot somewhere?  The mainspring is fully wound.

Problem is it could be just about anything? Basically if you get the watch to run with more pressure it still could be about anything. It just says that the power from the mainspring isn't getting to the balance wheel or if it's getting there the balance wheel is having a problem.

Look in at the balance wheel look at the hairspring make sure it's flat make sure it's not touching the balance arms. You can lose a lot of energy if that hairspring isn't where it's supposed to be.

Out of curiosity how did you lubricate the escapement? With power on remove the balance wheel gently push on the fork Doesn't snap nicely as you push in one direction unsnapped the other way when you push it the other way? In other words you can simulate the balance wheel and just gently push on the fork see if it snaps back and forth? The reason I asked about lubricating the escapement is normally do that with a little power on and you should've observed whether the fork was moving freely when you are lubricating. A lot of the things you look at you do it before you get the watch assembled so you have less surprises of oh dear my watch doesn't run. Not that that doesn't happen sometimes.

Let all the power off remove the pallet fork gently start to wind the watch does the gear train start up and spin or does it seem to not spin at all? Worst-case if you wind the watch up quite a bit before the train spins that would be undesirable. Then if you wind it and it just starts to spin effortlessly that would be good look in and make sure the wheels look like they're reasonably flat though. In other words are not wobbling up and down or other undesirable things.

Then what happens if you don't touch the mainspring? If the prior lubrication has gone really really bad it can act as a glue and glue the mainspring together. This means if you're lucky the watch will run fully wound up but it definitely won't run overnight. At the minimum you can take the Off and look at the mainspring and see how it looks. So if it's blue in color the old blued steel tends to set with time. But I sent mainspring will run the watch where it's fully wound up and just won't run it overnight. So not ideal you could leave the mainspring in but you should at least check to see how good or bad it looks. Then at least you could clean and oil the arbor.

As you've commented balance wheels and hairsprings nice place for new people have problems. You could put the balance wheel back in without the pallet fork give the balance wheel puff of air and see how moves does oscillate back-and-forth nicely or does it come to a screeching halt really fast. Typically when they hairspring is touching the balance arms The balance wheels not colossally nicely. It seems the oscillating fine turn it upside down make sure it still is oscillating nicely.

then who made your watch? As a reminder the name on the dial possibly name on the case name on the back of the movement doesn't mean that they made the watch at all. Elgin and their very later years started to purchase overseas movement save and had an overseas factory. Later on they were just a name. So to epically whoever made the movement you'll find usually under the balance wheel at least in later watch is sometimes a manufacturer hides that it could be on the dial side.

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&FHF_72

 

[Nucejoe]

Does balance oscilate freely without the fork in place? 

Does the fork jump to other side when you nudge it? 

 

[Rhobin]

Thanks for the detail reply and suggestions.  Much appreciated.

 

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Look in at the balance wheel look at the hairspring make sure it's flat make sure it's not touching the balance arms. You can lose a lot of energy if that hairspring isn't where it's supposed to be.

Having removed the balance and replaced it after following up on some of the suggestions, the balance wheel seems to be tilted.  It does seem to have a little more amplitude after putting the balance back in.

I took off the cap stones to take a look at the pivots. Both seem to be extending through the jewel hole.  The balance wheel looked level when I had the movement dial side up without the cap stone on, and it seems more level with it back in.  So I guess I didn't do as well with the shock-springs as I thought.

The amplitude is better but still fairly low, but not much worse from when I first opened the case. It gets worse when I try different positions, so I guess I've still got balance jewel issues, although things don't look too bad with the limited magnification I have.

 

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Out of curiosity how did you lubricate the escapement? With power on remove the balance wheel gently push on the fork Doesn't snap nicely as you push in one direction unsnapped the other way when you push it the other way? In other words you can simulate the balance wheel and just gently push on the fork see if it snaps back and forth?

I didn't lubricate the pallet stones. I do have some oil for it, but I was going to do that if things looked like they were reasonably healthy.

I did try the fork snap check. But only for a couple of times. I hadn't checked the whole wheel.  I went back and did that, and it seems to snap between consistently.  I've not got much to compare against to say if there is a significant amount of power in the snap, but it looks OK to me from what I've seen in YouTube videos.

 

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Does balance oscilate freely without the fork in place? 

Without the fork, the balance wheel oscillates really nicely. It takes quite a while to come back to rest after a bit of a blow from the air pump/blower.

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Let all the power off remove the pallet fork gently start to wind the watch does the gear train start up and spin or does it seem to not spin at all? Worst-case if you wind the watch up quite a bit before the train spins that would be undesirable.

It doesn't want to start up, but the slightest nudge will get it going.

 

At this point, I'm thinking my problems relate to the balance stones.  Caused by me, or something pre-existing but made worse by me.  There does seem to be a bit too much end-shake on the balance when I nudge it with some peg-wood when it has no power.  The jewels look OK to my eye - posted images with the jewels in-place without the end-stones.  Is it possible I was too rough with the peg-wood while cleaning the jewels in the main plate?

 

 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Rhobin said:

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

Let all the power off remove the pallet fork gently start to wind the watch does the gear train start up and spin or does it seem to not spin at all? Worst-case if you wind the watch up quite a bit before the train spins that would be undesirable. Then if you wind it and it just starts to spin effortlessly that would be good look in and make sure the wheels look like they're reasonably flat though. In other words are not wobbling up and down or other undesirable things.

 

 

It doesn't want to start up, but the slightest nudge will get it going.

   

So loosen bridge screws up to two turns, does it then start up and gears run effortlessly? 

 

The last picture shows balance wheel tilted and close enough to fork cock to rub. You stated the rim itself is level, so its the balance pivot that gets out of jewel hole, which conceivably is due to excessive end shake on balance staff/ pivot. 

I'd put everything back and check the end shake which ideally should be aprox .02mm. 

 

[Rhobin]

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

So loosen bridge screws up to two turns, does it then start up and gears run effortlessly? 

Nothing changes as I loosen the screws.

 

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I'd put everything back and check the end shake which ideally should be aprox .02mm. 

I think there is way more than that.  Looking through the cap stoned, the pivots seem to be just poking through the jewel holes on both sides. 

Is the balance staff end-shake limited by the end-stones, or the taper of the pivots in the jewel holes?

I guess balance staffs and shock systems are my next topic to read up on.

Thanks for all the suggestions and information. 

 

[Nucejoe]

13 minutes ago, Rhobin said:

is the balance staff end-shake limited by the end-stones, or the taper of the pivots in the jewel holes?

Yes, limited by end stones only. 

 

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Rhobin said:

balance wheel seems to be tilted.

Tilted is definitely not good

5 hours ago, Rhobin said:

So I guess I didn't do as well with the shock-springs as I thought.

In your original picture we can see the gold springs or spring holding the balance jewels in do any of the later pictures have the spring in place?

5 hours ago, Rhobin said:

I didn't lubricate the pallet stones. I do have some oil for it, but I was going to do that if things looked like they were reasonably healthy.

I did try the fork snap check. But only for a couple of times. I hadn't checked the whole wheel.  I went back and did that, and it seems to snap between consistently.  I've not got much to compare against to say if there is a significant amount of power in the snap, but it looks OK to me from what I've seen in YouTube videos.

It's amazing how much friction if you don't lubricate the escapement.

43 minutes ago, Rhobin said:

Is the balance staff end-shake limited by the end-stones, or the taper of the pivots in the jewel holes?

I guess balance staffs and shock systems are my next topic to read up on.

I have a link below to YouTube video not the same system you have but they're all similar. The end stone is what determines the end shake but it's also control by the spring on the end That holds the whole thing together. Then the little hard to see in the video but you do want to be careful that the end stone is flat on the side that faces the pivot and its curved on the other side. You definitely wanted facing the proper direction

https://youtu.be/8fdtEU1hJ4Q

 

 

[Rhobin]

On 1/30/2022 at 10:30 PM, JohnR725 said:

In your original picture we can see the gold springs or spring holding the balance jewels in do any of the later pictures have the spring in place?

No. But when I get time I can take some and add them.

I'll also give the escapement a bit of an oil. At this point, I will probably give things another quick clean and oil. May as well, I need the practice.

On 1/30/2022 at 10:30 PM, JohnR725 said:

I have a link below to YouTube video not the same system you have but they're all similar.

Thanks. I'll try to take a closer look to ensure I've got the cap stones the correct way round.

I think I saw somewhere that a heavy handed way of reducing end-shake on the balance was to bend the balance cock? Not sure how that would be possible.  I guess the only other way is replacing the balance staff with one with longer pivots.  Not that I have the skill or tools for that. So I guess sourcing another balance complete.

All of this, of course, is dependant on my correctly interpreting your suggestions and coming to the correct conclusions.

Thanks again. I'll report back if I have anything to add or ask. 

[JohnR725]

55 minutes ago, Rhobin said:

I think I saw somewhere that a heavy handed way of reducing end-shake on the balance was to bend the balance cock? Not sure how that would be possible.  I guess the only other way is replacing the balance staff with one with longer pivots.  Not that I have the skill or tools for that. So I guess sourcing another balance complete.

Just to be clear you cannot check End shake without the end stones in place and the Springs holding them in. As there protected balance jewels system it would be unlikely the pivots are broken is also equally unlikely that there too short not impossible but just unlikely also unlikely that you're really having an issue. You're more likely to have an issue with the hairspring touching the balance wheel.

 

[Rhobin]

On 1/30/2022 at 10:30 PM, JohnR725 said:

In your original picture we can see the gold springs or spring holding the balance jewels in do any of the later pictures have the spring in place?

Sorry this has taken a while to get.  I've attached images of the dial-side and balance cock jewels.

 

On 1/30/2022 at 10:30 PM, JohnR725 said:

Then the little hard to see in the video but you do want to be careful that the end stone is flat on the side that faces the pivot and its curved on the other side. You definitely wanted facing the proper direction

 

I'm struggling with this aspect - when I look at the end-stones through my loupe they don't really look any different. 

I've got a cheep USB 'microscope', but even with that I find it difficult to see a difference in the sides.  My tweezer skills are still a bit poor, so I'm finding it difficult to take a photo of the jewel on-edge.   Although I just thought rodico would be my friend in trying to do that.

 

I notice that the shine off the end-stone jewel is different depending which way up it is.  I took a photo of the movement side end-stone in both ways, and attached them. Would I be correct in thinking that photo with more diffuse light reflections that are away from the edge would indicate the flat side in upwards?  I was thinking the more diffuse light would be travelling through the jewel so is refracted more, but the sharper white reflections on the edge would indicate the curve of the stone on the upper face.  My reasoning may be completely wrong on that though.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

These pictures are showing the curved side of the jewel.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Rhobin said:

USB 'microscope'

One of the misconceptions of people with microscopes are thinking they will let you somehow magically see better and they did not. You need to know what you're looking at and what you're looking for and why you're looking at it because otherwise the microscope does not help at all.

2 hours ago, Rhobin said:

I notice that the shine off the end-stone jewel is different depending which way up it is. 

Yes that's exactly how you tell. If you look at a reflection like a light source the curved surface distorts the view of the light you are looking at the flat surface it doesn't distort. Like if you had a florescent tube along the light source it makes it a lot easier.

Go find yourself a shiny round glass look at the glass and see a reflection on the glass see how it distorts the image then take a flat mere look at the same reflected image curve service will give you a different reflection than the flat surface. Otherwise the curvature is so slight it's hard to just look at it and see you have to look at the reflection.

[Nucejoe]

 There is no evidence of pivot inside the jewel hole ( 2nd picture , of cock up) so possibly pivot is worn and doesn't stay in jewel hole. 

You say " the watch run better before you touched it"   so mainspring is unlikely to be the cause of low amplitude in this case, specially if baŕrel looked OK and its lid properly refitted. 

So, check the end shake,if needed  shim the cock to adjust the end shake , ewel setting can also be moved to the same effect, if you can confirm short pivot, you might get away with simply facing  the curved side of the end stone to the pivot ( this approach is frowned upon since  oil will not stay on top of the dome) or replace the balance staff with a new one.