Jump to content

Elgin 448 Cap stone removal

mikecj

By mikecj
in Watch Repairs Help & Advice

 Share

Recommended Posts

mikecj Member

mikecj

Posted
Posted

All,

I am working on an Elgin 448 watch. It is almost 90 years old and had a lot of crud on it. I'm working on the balance  trying to remove the cap stone (jewel) in order to clean it. I managed to remove the two small screws (locations in red) that hold it in place without to much trouble. However I cannot remove the jewel because of the brass inserts surrounding it (locations in yellow). 

I thought about applying heat or cold but am worried about damaging the hairspring.

Any suggestions? Attached is a picture of the unit.

Thanks, 

MikeCJ

IMG_20220120_130341890_LI.jpg

mikepilk Distinguished Member

mikepilk

Posted
Posted (edited)

The cap jewel is mounted in the brass insert, you do not remove it !

First remove the balance + hairspring - v carefully !

Take out the two screws, then turn the cock over, and push the jewels out from below. 

You will then have the hole jewel, in a brass surround, and the cap jewel, also in a brass mounting.

I have an old Elgin 455 which I've just pushed the (very dirty) jewels out to show you -

0001.thumb.jpg.455f9f064ffda4a8f92c1043b93d298c.jpg

0002.thumb.jpg.06daf13d7eb498a4dcf4cee4d32cb549.jpg

 

Edited by mikepilk
JohnR725 Distinguished Member

JohnR725

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, mikecj said:

I thought about applying heat or cold but am worried about damaging the hairspring.

If you had a blowtorch you should Be able to melt the brass and get the jewels free. Unless of course you're trying to service the watch then this would be a really bad idea.

I'm assuming this is your first pocket watch?

What you want to do is loosen the stud screw push the stud out a little bit not too far so it's loose remove the balance bridge remove the balance wheel Keeping the hairspring on the balance wheel of course. Because if you going to clean the watch you have to take the balance wheel out anyway.

To understand the jewels I have a picture. The jewels are burnished into brass settings. This is why blowtorch would be a bad idea because you want to keep them in the settings.

Then because I was too slow to answer somebody beat me to the answer with nice pictures I think you get an idea of how it all goes together or comes apart

jewels American pocket watch balance in settings.JPG

  • Haha 2
Nucejoe Distinguished Member

Nucejoe

Posted
Posted

Mike is on the money,

JohnR is kidding,( too many help and advice to give) 

Remove the balance first to get it out of harms way.

Give the cock assembly a 48 hr soak in Coca cola or a bath in ultrasonic or use penetrating oil .

The end stone is happy in the brass plate, thats where is suppose to stay, all you need is to gain access to otherside  and clean it real good.

Good luck 

JohnR725 Distinguished Member

JohnR725

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Give the cock assembly a 48 hr soak in Coca cola or a bath in ultrasonic or use penetrating oil .

The end stone is happy in the brass plate, thats where is suppose to stay, all you need is to gain access to otherside  and clean it real good.

Traditionally on American pocket watches to clean the balance jewels they have to be pushed out. The screws have to come out but there's a problem with that? The screws at some point in time will end up getting stripped that's an issue. At one time they made oversized screws to fix the problem but you're not going to find those. The preferred way would be to just clean it with a decent ultrasonic machine but it depends on how bad the lubrication is as to whether you can clean it out or not when it's assembled.

Nucejoe Distinguished Member

Nucejoe

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Traditionally on American pocket watches to clean the balance jewels they have to be pushed out. The screws have to come out but there's a problem with that? The screws at some point in time will end up getting stripped that's an issue. At one time they made oversized screws to fix the problem but you're not going to find those. The preferred way would be to just clean it with a decent ultrasonic machine but it depends on how bad the lubrication is as to whether you can clean it out or not when it's assembled.

I didn't mean cleaning with the endstone on cock assembly. OP needs to check the other side of end stone to make sure its in good condition, suggested soaking cuz op says there is  lots of crud is on it. 

Regards 

mikepilk Distinguished Member

mikepilk

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 The screws at some point in time will end up getting stripped that's an issue. At one time they made oversized screws to fix the problem but you're not going to find those. 

I've come across the stripped screws many times (e.g. the left screw in the above movement). I didn't realise they made oversize screws to fix the problem. I use a tiny drop of Loctite.

Edited by mikepilk
 Share
Go to topic listing


  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • tcabot
      Looking to try servicing an old movement

      By tcabot · Posted

      Thank you. No value to me, and I guess not much value to anyone else either - just practice fodder as far as I see them. Ingersoll might make a nice watch to wear if I manage to service it. Benrus, I suspect, is too far gone in terms of case and dial - no cheap ways of getting them to decent looking condition? I wonder how these old movements compare to modern Chinese ones? Probably not favourably, even if there's nothing broken in them? Progress moves on? I've got an old Slava that I'm quite attached to, so I won't be learning on that one.
    • AndyGSi
      Looking to try servicing an old movement

      By AndyGSi · Posted

      Welcome to the forum. You're best starting with something that you know runs well and keeps good time. That way when you've stripped and service it, any problems are due to something you've done.
    • Kalanag
      Looking to try servicing an old movement

      By Kalanag · Posted

      Welcome to the WRT-Forum! Sorry to say it, but you’re very likely to break or lose something when servicing a wristwatch for the first time — I’ve been there! So, if these watches have any value to you, don’t attempt to service them as a beginner.
    • dnhb
      Loose roller table

      By dnhb · Posted

      In writing "shimming the staff" I was alluding to the idea trailed in the above referenced thread of inserting a hair along the staff which, as the discussion there covered,  could result in some eccentricity. By making a (more or less) complete cylinder I was hoping to avoid that problem. Don't tell anyone, but needing a very ductile metal to do this by manipulation at such a small scale, I used a piece of an empty Tomato pureé tube! It occurred to me that the material's ductility(?) would also put less stress on the RT in forming a sufficiently tight seal. Anyway, that's how I avoided the temptation to use glue. No doubt your punctuational response to this confession will be "!!!" !
    • tcabot
      Looking to try servicing an old movement

      By tcabot · Posted

      Hi All. I would appreciate some advice for a complete newbie on getting into watch servicing - nothing serious,  just as a fun project. I've got a thing for hand-wound watches and would like to bring an old watch (or two) back to life, so looking to learn to do a strip-clean-oil-assemble cycle.   I've toyed with this idea in the past (years ago) and picked up a couple candidates to learn on, but never found the time for them.  One is an old Ingersoll, swiss-made 17 jewels. It seems to wind and tick. Casing, dial, glass are in great shape, so looks like a good candidate to me for the first service. The other is a Benrus DR23. It winds and makes a few reluctant ticks, but then seems to stop. Casing looks like a complete gonner, and the dial is in pretty poor shape too. If the movement is not broken and just needs a service, I wonder if there's any possibility of getting a cheapo Chinese casing & dial to fit this movement in, or is it extremely unlikely to be the right size?   For a start, I want to strip & assemble a movement, perhaps a dozen times to build up the basic parts handling skills. I see that online advice is to buy a Chinese-made ST36 for this purpose. Can I just go at the Benrus or Ingersoll instead, or does it make more sense to get a cheap ST for this? Thank you.    
×
×
  • Create New...