Manual wind watch runs for a few hours then stops

[JohnR725]

12 minutes ago, jdm said:

It is just fine to not epilame pallets,

I wonder how many people in the group use epilame? 

52 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

What I don't quite understand is that I see a similar behaviour when  I don't lube pallets at all, runs good for a few days or weeks then stops. I suppose escape teeth starts scartching pallets, the accumulative effect of which stops the watch, not sure though.

I think we need a clarification? Are we talking about a pin lever escapement or jeweled escapement?

 

[Francis]

26 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

To help you in the future I'm curious as to what you're procedure was it didn't work?

 

Do you mean what went wrong in trying to adjust the beat error?  I used the approach Mark had in his video (link below).  The collet was tight, so in trying to turn it as he shows – the screwdriver slipped out of the slot with some force behind it.  That made a mess of the hairspring which I couldn’t fix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvMCNyrDZQo

[jdm]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I think we need a clarification? Are we talking about a pin lever escapement or jeweled escapement?

The OP mentioned Molnija's (USSR) but did not post pictures (as it's always good). I believe these are Swiss lever mov.ts.
 

[JohnR725]

3 minutes ago, jdm said:

The OP mentioned Molnija's (USSR) but did not post pictures (as it's always good). I believe these are Swiss lever mov.ts.

I'm pretty sure this is a Swiss lever my question related to the discussion regarding epilame pallets. So are hijacking the discussion in a way. As both of us are in agreement that surface treatment isn't necessary and the problem somebody else was having where a bit confusing unless a course somebody was doing a pin pallet escapement even then?

8 minutes ago, Francis said:

Do you mean what went wrong in trying to adjust the beat error?  I used the approach Mark had in his video (link below).  The collet was tight, so in trying to turn it as he shows – the screwdriver slipped out of the slot with some force behind it.  That made a mess of the hairspring which I couldn’t fix.

Yes that was the question I was asking. One of the interesting things in watch repair is there's a variety of ways of doing things. Personally I don't like the balance tack. That I definitely don't like dangling the balance while trying to adjust the beat. I would prefer the balance not be there. Then back C make tools for doing this although their hard to find on eBay basically like a screwdriver but very long taper as you want to be careful with a screwdriver of shoving it in as usually can spread the collet if you're not careful. Then when you're rotating the collet you do have to be careful in that bad things can happen if you're not careful. So now you've learned a lesson next time try to be more careful and not force things that didn't want to rotate don't . And watch repair he would be really careful not to force things.

 

[Nucejoe]

5 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I wonder how many people in the group use epilame? 

I think we need a clarification? Are we talking about a pin lever escapement or jeweled escapement?

 

I agree with your point.  Used  pin pallet is more susceptible to friction, however, the face of used pallet stones are often far from perfectly smooth. 

Molnija doesn't polish escape teeth half as good as low grade Swiss. 

OP's watches run good for couple of months before they stop, so its a lubricant issue and of all parts in escapement, pallets face-escape teeth is most susceptible to friction.

Regs 

[Nucejoe]

19 minutes ago, jdm said:

The OP mentioned Molnija's (USSR) but did not post pictures (as it's always good). I believe these are Swiss lever mov.ts.
 

Right, they are Swiss lever escapement ,  but like all Russian movements poorly polished.

[Nucejoe]

Molnija is a copy of cortebert, there is a world of difference between the two when it comes to polishing. 

@Francis  just a test,   when your watch stops like you say, put some diesel fuel on escape teeth, if your watch picked up and run with excellent amplitude " at low wind"  you have spotted a fault, perhaps the fault.

Regs 

[jdm]

2 hours ago, Francis said:

The collet was tight, so in trying to turn it as he shows – the screwdriver slipped out of the slot with some force behind it.  That made a mess of the hairspring which I couldn’t fix.

On the very first mov.t that you work on it's too early to attempt delicate (an in this case, largely unnecessary) maneuvers on the balance.

Stay with the basics, build solid dexterity and skills first, these will create self-confidence on which success is based.

It's a long process which requires patience and discipline, no surprise that out of maybe 50 new members that join, after one or two years perhaps only two are still visiting with some results to show.

[Nucejoe]

On 12/5/2021 at 9:51 AM, Francis said:

My understanding is that too tight a cannon pinion (ie too much friction with the centre post) doesn't affect the way a watch runs, only the way it winds.  

Tight canon pinion affects setting the hands.  

When winding , winding pinion turns the winding wheel which  turns ratchet wheel. 

I should go back and read your thread from the begining since I really have no idea whats it all about.

Regs 

 

[JohnR725]

On 9/29/2021 at 2:19 PM, Francis said:

I'm new to this forum and watch repair.

Buy new to watch repair is this the first watch you've ever serviced?

On 9/29/2021 at 2:19 PM, Francis said:

Amplitude, etc were all good at the end of the process and it ran well for a few weeks.

It would've been nice if you had a picture of the timing machine results for us. As you're new to watch repair it might have looked perfect to you but maybe it would not look perfect us. Then what was your actual timing procedure? Did you look at the watch in more than one position. Did you only look at the watch was fully wound up tight or an hour or two later? 

Then exactly how far out of beat was it?

On 9/29/2021 at 2:19 PM, Francis said:

The balance starts when I shake it and then works again for a few hours and stops.  I have two questions:

One of the questions I usually ask is what was the condition of the watch in before you started? In other words are you attempting to fix an existing problem or a new problem that you introduced in learning watch repair?

On 12/3/2021 at 2:29 PM, Francis said:

 I wanted to rescue old beat-up pocket watches and convert those with unsavable or no cases to wristwatches.

Usually my recommendation for new people is to start with a new watch. You need to build up expertise and how to disassemble and reassemble it lubricated etc. and still keep it in running condition. The problem is if you start with a watch that has problems that you think are going to be fixed by cleaning that probably isn't going to happen. Especially on old beat up pocket watches they tend to have interesting life's and if they been worked on before can have all sorts of interesting problems that aren't always easy to find.

 

[Francis]

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Usually my recommendation for new people is to start with a new watch. You need to build up expertise and how to disassemble and reassemble it lubricated etc. and still keep it in running condition. The problem is if you start with a watch that has problems that you think are going to be fixed by cleaning that probably isn't going to happen. Especially on old beat up pocket watches they tend to have interesting life's and if they been worked on before can have all sorts of interesting problems that aren't always easy to find.

To go back to my original post - I had done maybe a handful of Molnijas by that time.  I was systematically going through the calibres since we couldn't do much else during covid where I live in Australia (for a long time we had night curfew and couldn’t travel more than a few miles from home in the daytime).  So I had time to get an understanding of their “interesting lives” as you put it.  Most were actually fine from the get-go and came up well – and as you say, those that weren’t rescued were probably always doomed (although I had a couple of successes).  If they worked at the end, I'd usually on-sell them at a loss - it's a hobby and I can afford to spend on a hobby at my age. 

The watch in question in the original post was a relatively rare transition model (Krystal) between the early 15 jewel ChK-6 Molnija calibre and the later 18 jewel 3602.  I was frustrated because I thought I had the knack of it and the watch worked well for some time after service.  I didn't photograph the timegrapher reading, but I recall it being little different from what I’ll show below even when it was starting to play up.  What I’ve found with most of these old watches is high beat error.  So when the suggestion came in that it was the problem, I decided to give it a crack – but I cracked it instead. 

After the Molnijas I transitioned to small American Hamiltons, which was always my goal.  They also have had interesting lives, although not as hard as the Russians.  It’s one of these that has the issue with the tight tolerance between the cannon pinion and hour wheel – I think the latter got crimped at some point in its interesting life.  

Yes, I understand about starting on cheap new (Chinese) movements – and I did (an ST36).  It was useful, but the Mollies were going to give me the experience for what I wanted to do, so I quickly moved on. Below is the timegrapher of a serviced Molnija that’s been working for months – part-wound, dial up/down & crown up/down.  Most have looked like this. I understand the beat error to be high (like the Krystal) and the amplitude OK given it’s an old watch.  It runs fine in different positions except slow face down – but it keeps good time on wrist, so I’ve left it as is.  But again, it's a learning experience for me - so if I'm missing something - then kindly let me know.  Thanks.