Odd timegrapher results

[ifibrin]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Don't assume that closer is necessarily better. There are situations in which a minor noise gets amplified too much and fools the software in detecting it instead to the actual impulse, that is why gain control is present on the other models. The machine is designed to work well even not only with the bare mov.t sitting 2cm far from the microphone with the metallic mov.t holder transmitting sound as a vibration, but as well  with it in a closed case and other noises in the room.

I agree, if not the timegrapher wouldn’t work with cased watches. I think the excessive lock is contributing to the lower amplitude, but I’m not sure if the extra dots on the timegrapher trace is actually an artifact due to the extremely soft sound of this movement. Using such an old mainspring also isn’t generally a good idea, but I don’t currently have a replacement mainspring.

[ifibrin]

8 hours ago, jdm said:

First picture shows insufficient amplitude. Second one has barely enough. But I don't think that is related to the problem in subject. Can you record the sound, 10 seconds will be enough, and place it on some sharing location. That will allow other to listen to it, and even look using a waverform application, looking for spurious noises. Of course, you're encouraged to do the same.

I’m not sure how to get a recording of the sound from the mic of the timegrapher, and I don’t think my phone can capture the extremely soft ticking.

[WatchingOracle]

17 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

I’m not sure how to get a recording of the sound from the mic of the timegrapher, and I don’t think my phone can capture the extremely soft ticking.

I was wondering if there was a way to directly connect the microphone to a line in/3.5mm jack on a computer/device using an adapter of some sort.

The connection on the Weishi microphone looks familiar to me... memories of music lessons and equipment as a child. I'm thinking the connection was a common input type for electrical instruments.

I can't access my timographer at the moment (would wake everyone up at this hour here lol) but is this the connection type on the end of it? (see picture)

If so, then its an XLR type connection according to some googling. Maybe the right converter would allow it to plug into a computer to record (if you are using a combo headphone/microphone jack make sure you get the 3 input type that will allow a recording)

3.5mm to XLR Female Adapter Cable

[jdm]

1 hour ago, ifibrin said:

I’m not sure how to get a recording of the sound from the mic of the timegrapher, and I don’t think my phone can capture the extremely soft ticking.

If you can't make an adapter as described in the link below use the mic from headset or earbuds.

1 hour ago, WatchingOracle said:

I was wondering if there was a way to directly connect the microphone to a line in/3.5mm jack on a computer/device using an adapter of some sort.

Check thread below. Note, the connector is not an XLR, even it it looks and can plugged (with excessive force) into one. It's a 3 pin "aero" connector. I will add more details to the topic when I get around to build and test mine.

 

[VWatchie]

9 hours ago, jdm said:

That is strange, and if confirmed, unacceptable. No parts in a watch should rely on presence of lubrication to move or slide in relation to each other.

I agree, but the pallets are definitely the most important part to lubricate for any kind of decent running, so maybe not enough power is being transferred through the train. My guess is that the problem is likely not the pallets but something else, unless the pallet lock depth is extreme.

I just recently saw a very interesting lecture by Roger Smith on the topic of escapements. As expected, he completely rejects the Swiss lever escapement because it is altogether dependent on lubrication. This argument in itself is expected because he is a strong advocate of the co-axial escapement which he himself helped to develop and refine. Nevertheless, he is one of the world's foremost authorities in the field, so his words are worth considering. The complete lecture can be seen here.

 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, jdm said:

Check thread below. Note, the connector is not an XLR, even it it looks and can plugged (with excessive force) into one. It's a 3 pin "aero" connector. I will add more details to the topic when I get around to build and test mine.

As correctly noted above the connector looks familiar but it's not what you're thinking it is. This is the one you want it fits perfectly..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/221445284681

I purchased the connectors for an unfinished project  that  would be helpful.  The Chinese machines lack audio  and  the ability to listen to the watch especially if you're having problems is really important..  The ability to listen to the watch and see if it actually is an audio problem or something else.

The easiest way to get audio from the timing machines is to hack the microphone.. Using a pair of the connectors you can make a pass through I would put it in a Metal box though so it shielded..  This way the microphone and continue to function like it's supposed to and you have access to everything you need  to have audio.

In other words it should be relatively easy if you have the time which I seem to be lacking to put an audio device on your timing machine and then listen to the watch and be unhappy with how horrible it can sound.  Then I'm not joking about how horrible it can sound  I have a horrible sounding watch currently at work I have to deal with it sounds very very bad... But at least in the audio I know why the timing machines unhappy with the watch. With the audio you take away a lot of the mysteries that you see on the timing machine.

 

 

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I agree, but the pallets are definitely the most important part to lubricate for any kind of decent running, so maybe not enough power is being transferred through the train. My guess is that the problem is likely not the pallets but something else, unless the pallet lock depth is extreme.

For testing purposes the watch should run just fine without lubricants.  You might actually find the reality is a watch runs better without lubricants because all lubricants tend to have a dampening effect.  On the other hand try to run your watch over long periods of time with out lubricant and see what effect that has it's usually not good.

But  there can be an issue with  the lubrication of the escapement.. They get carried away with the 9415  then that's definitely an issue and will cause Amplitude loss as it tends to be sticky if it's applied way too heavily.

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I just recently saw a very interesting lecture by Roger Smith on the topic of escapements. As expected, he completely rejects the Swiss lever escapement because it is altogether dependent on lubrication. This argument in itself is expected because he is a strong advocate of the co-axial escapement which he himself helped to develop and refine. Nevertheless, he is one of the world's foremost authorities in the field, so his words are worth considering. The complete lecture can be seen here.

The lubrication aspect is interesting because George Daniels was very very unhappy with Omega.. Look at the tech sheet for the coaxial escapement and you find lubrication but my understanding is it's not used as lubrication.. It's used to dampen the impact of the escapement but it still required. Defeating the whole purpose this escapement of not requiring a lubrication..

[ifibrin]

I actually think the extra dots on the trace is due to noise as I can get the artifacts to disappear by readjusting the movement in the mic jaws. I think the movement is just really quiet, and any looseness can cause artifacts.

[VWatchie]

On 9/21/2021 at 12:14 AM, JohnR725 said:

For testing purposes the watch should run just fine without lubricants.

By "just fine" do you mean performing as well or better than being lubricated or simply somewhat ticking along? I was definitely under the impression (I never tested it) that a newly and perfectly serviced dry movement would perform worse than a lubricated one.

EDIT: Read you post again, I believe you already answered my question. Thanks!

On 9/21/2021 at 12:14 AM, JohnR725 said:

They get carried away with the 9415  then that's definitely an issue and will cause Amplitude loss as it tends to be sticky if it's applied way too heavily.

Interesting! I believe this is a mistake I may have used to do and the reason I got somewhat better results with "Dr. Tillwich Etsyntha Oil Variety 1-3" which is similar to 9415 but isn't sticky. Anyway, if applied correctly, I believe 9415 has better longevity and possibly better performance as well.

In the lecture I linked to, Roger Smith states that amplitude of a lever escapement will drop by as much as 30 % to 40 % in six month after lubrication. From that point of view it's hard not to agree that the lever escapement is somewhat flawed. But, I wonder if it is really true and if so, if it applies to 9415 as well. German watch manufacturer Sinn uses something they call "Ar-Dehumidifying Technology" to combat the aging of oils due to moisture in the air contained inside, or diffusing into, the watch. I don't think George Daniels would have approved though as it isn't a mechanical solution.

On 9/21/2021 at 12:14 AM, JohnR725 said:

The lubrication aspect is interesting because George Daniels was very very unhappy with Omega

 

On 9/21/2021 at 12:14 AM, JohnR725 said:

Defeating the whole purpose this escapement of not requiring a lubrication.

Old George must be turning in his grave. What a shame! 

Edited September 22, 2021 by VWatchie
Language improvement

[VWatchie]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:16 AM, ifibrin said:

I actually think the extra dots on the trace is due to noise as I can get the artifacts to disappear by readjusting the movement in the mic jaws. I think the movement is just really quiet, and any looseness can cause artifacts.

That sounds plausible, and you can always test the watch by wearing it for a month or so. If it performs persistently it's likely nothing wrong with it. Maybe put a Weishi 1900 on your Christmas wish list!? 

It could also be that the movement is too noisy. I've experienced both scenarios.

Edited September 22, 2021 by VWatchie

[JohnR725]

53 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Interesting! I believe this is a mistake I may have used to do and the reason I got somewhat better results with "Dr. Tillwich Etsyntha Oil Variety 1-3" which is similar to 9415 but isn't sticky. Anyway, if applied correctly, I believe 9415 have better longevity and possibly better performance as well.

9415 is interesting lubricants. It's a grease it stays where you put it which is good but as it's a grease it can be sticky. It's supposed to work where on impact it becomes fluid.  My theory on this is that if the lubrication is applied to heavily you have the nice impact very slippery but if the lubrication is sticking up beyond the impact area you then have sticky lubricant. Because there be no impact their. If you look at Omega's working instruction on lubrication of the escapement they go super minimalistic which I guess is their solution around the problem.

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

In the lecture I linked to, Roger Smith states that amplitude of a lever escapement will drop by as much as 30 % to 40 % in six month after lubrication. From that point of view it's hard not to agree that the lever escapement is somewhat flawed. But, I wonder if it is really true and if so, if it applies to 9415 as well.

The easy way to find that out is find one of the watches that you did six months ago or later and see if the amplitude Has really dropped? I have to wonder if with modern lubricants properly applied weather that really is true or not. But with time lots of time if you're lubrication on the escapement disappears that would definitely be an issue. Of course the problem is how much time we talking about?

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Old George must be turning in his grave. What a shame! 

The reason I knew that George was unhappy with the Swiss was? He was supposed to show up at a wostep reunion in Switzerland and did not. This would be the second time I missed out on meeting George. The first time he had a good friend in Seattle and was going to come visit a school that I was in but they decided to go fishing instead. I find it interesting in my life all of the near misses of really interesting people that I didn't get to meet. Although some other people I didn't grasp at the time why it would've been really important to have met them. In other words for those other people I could of come back to wherever they were but I didn't grasp the importance of things at the time. On the other hand Roger Smith has been to Seattle twice weren't met him both times. Before he was famous he came to a nawcc chapter meeting it. Where we liked him so much we asked him to come back for our regional meeting as the main speaker. Fortunately as I said he wasn't famous yet so is easy to get him to come back.

 

[WatchingOracle]

On 9/21/2021 at 4:11 AM, jdm said:

Check thread below. Note, the connector is not an XLR, even it it looks and can plugged (with excessive force) into one. It's a 3 pin "aero" connector. I will add more details to the topic when I get around to build and test mine.

Can't wait to see how you go! Is this the specific adapter you intend on making?

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by WatchingOracle

[ifibrin]

Here are some photos of the excessive lock I was talking about:

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, ifibrin said:

Here are some photos of the excessive lock I was talking about:

it would be nice to see what the other side looks like also.