Source of Heat-Blued Hands / Pocket Watch Hand Sizes and the ETA 6498

[dpn]

Hi all,

I was really inspired by Mark's "Build Your Own Custom Watch Using Parts from eBay" video, and I built myself a custom watch using an ETA 6498-1 movement and parts I sourced on eBay. Unfortunately, I significantly damaged the seconds hand: Somehow the seconds hand fell onto my carpet around a week ago, and I didn't realize I had dropped it until yesterday when I was completing my build. After a week of being on my floor, the seconds hand was quite mangled and bent out of shape. I managed to straighten the hand enough for it to be usable on the watch, but the damage is certainly noticeable. Frankly it's a miracle that I was able to find the hand at all. I've attached a photo that shows the damage to the seconds hand.

The obvious solution is to obtain a new seconds hand. Unfortunately, for this build I used really nice heat-blued hands from a French seller. They're gorgeous, but they were also quite expensive at 55 Euros per set. The seller cannot sell me just an individual replacement seconds hand -- I'd have to buy another complete set. I think that the color difference between the heat-blued hands and "blue steel oil paint" hands is likely to be significant and noticeable.

I believe I have four options: 1) ignore the damage and chalk it up as a little extra bit of customization on my watch; 2) spend a lot of money on a new heat blued hand full set; 3) spend < $5 on a replacement "blue steel oil paint" seconds hand from Otto Frei; or 4) see if I can find another heat-blued seconds hand that will fit and look good on the watch.

I ran into this eBay auction for "100x Recovered Pocket Watch Hands Lot" that will probably contain a variety of appropriate-looking heat blued seconds hands. The price is decent, and it'd be fun to get an assortment of hands for future projects. The catch is, of course, whether any of the seconds hands I receive will fit on my ETA 6498. For this, I'd appreciate any insights as to dimensions of common pocket watch seconds hands compared with the ETA 6498's 0.27mm requirement.

Here are my two questions, and I'd really appreciate folks' insights and suggestions here. Thank you in advance:

1) Is there any option I haven't considered that I should look into? Any other sellers of heat-blued hands the forum can recommend?

2) What are the chances that I'll find a seconds hand that fits the ETA 6498 in this lot? The seller describes the lot as: "Sizes: ranging from 21/0s - 36s watch sizes. Mostly 10s-18s though." I don't know enough about pocket watches to interpret this size description; I just know that the ETA 6498-1 was originally a pocket watch movement and that I need a 0.27mm hole size to fit my movement.

Thank you for your patience and indulgence in helping me figure out the best solution to this self-created problem. Lesson learned: I'm not taking any more hands out of their container to look at them before I'm ready to put them on a watch anymore!

All the best,

Dan

Edited July 8, 2020 by dpn

[dpn]

... thinking about this a little more deeply, it might be fun to acquire some plain steel hands and learn to blue them myself.

I'm sure that this won't be the most cost-effective way of fixing my specific issue, but I've been enamored with blued parts for a very long time and it would be delightful to be able to blue my own hands, screws, etc. in watches I make for friends and family.

I do have a stupid threshold question before going down this path, however -- there's a brass tube component that connects the hands with the pinions. Can one blue a set of steel hands with this little brass tube present, or does it need to be removed first? If the latter, this is going to be beyond me.

[MechanicMike]

1 hour ago, dpn said:

... thinking about this a little more deeply, it might be fun to acquire some plain steel hands and learn to blue them myself.

I'm sure that this won't be the most cost-effective way of fixing my specific issue, but I've been enamored with blued parts for a very long time and it would be delightful to be able to blue my own hands, screws, etc. in watches I make for friends and family.

I do have a stupid threshold question before going down this path, however -- there's a brass tube component that connects the hands with the pinions. Can one blue a set of steel hands with this little brass tube present, or does it need to be removed first? If the latter, this is going to be beyond me.

 

[MechanicMike]

31 minutes ago, MechanicMike said:

 

 try bluing yourself. its a fun experiment. I'm just a noob myself, even newer to this forum, working on vintage pocket watches, buying non working ones using them as a training tool to service and repair them. naturally bluing and I crossed paths. use some of the hands your getting in the lot. make sure they're clean and free of any coating. test them to see if they're metal(yes, I didn't once, and immediately melted one). thin sheetmetal is very temperature-sensitive. apply a low heat/flame such as a pocket lighter, or better yet, a small alcohol/white gas jewelers/watch makers lamp(you can buy the little buggers at even Wal-*** for a few bucks. I'm gonna catch flak about that one from the watch elite on here but I don't care)I bought a vintage one on ebay for cheap but I got lucky. I've tried a couple ways: one-lay the hand on a piece of brass if you can find one and slowly apply the heat under the said brass,  and then watch slowly as the hand starts to turn colors. don't hold the flame in one place. slowly guide it around as if you're lighting tobacco in a pipe. start with the flame about 1/2-3/4 inch away from the underside of the brass. it's amazing. you can basically color your hands to any color on the spectrum! blue, you say? well, what shade of blue? light? dark? purple? gold? you name it. just watch your color turn from light tan, to light cobalt...the color is only limited by your hand and the time allowed under the flame, and distance of the flame. try a couple for practice and you'll have the hang of it. it's easy. the other I try but only because I'm a machinist and I have access to brass small brass chips and dust. I made a small tray-like device out of brass and I put the chips and dust in it, lay the hands into the chips and set the flame to the underside of that. make its a little easier for me to hold and control. but you get the idea. 

the tube you speak of, and I'm not familiar much with ETA movements yet per se, but I think that has to stay. the other thing if you don't know the diameter, it if you have a staking device, you can open or close the bore in the hand by staking it, with the correct stake and stump. hey, have fun tho! dang things are addicting! then move onto your own screws. thats even more fun!

oops almost forgot-watch your fingers! and use a vise grip or pliers of some sort to hold on to the brass! of course, I've NEVER burned a finger or two. ha

Edited July 9, 2020 by MechanicMike

[dpn]

Mike, thank you so much for the thoughtful response! I'm particularly happy to hear that it's not necessarily impossible to resize a hand with a staking device and stump. I'm definitely looking into this more. 

I'm also just about sold on learning how to blue hands (and maybe screws) myself. I did quite a bit of research, and this is right up my alley. I'm a large format photographer with experience in quite a few touchy and potential dangerous alternative processes, and the bluing process sounds like a lot of fun. I'm certainly more "visually" inclined than I am mechanically inclined, so this seems like a good fit.

Thanks again for the great information!

I'm still interested in knowing if there are any good sources of blued hands that are cheaper than what I've found, but I don't think there are beyond doing it oneself or finding vintage hands.

Cheers, and stay tuned!

Edited July 9, 2020 by dpn

[dpn]

I've got some brass sheets & a nice handle on the way to build a heating tool. I've also got some nice cheap brass scarf on the way, and I'll be picking up a propane torch today to start learning how to blue hands. 

I just need to find a nice supply of steel hands to practice with ... and I think that "grab bag" of hands from eBay is going to work for that.

Thanks for the tip and encouragement @MechanicMike

[MechanicMike]

Format photog....you are in. Yep right up your alley. You'll be less that satisfied at a couple for sure, I did. But once you find your groove be aware of your face-I caught myself grinning like a little kid and ain't looked back. I screwed up I thought,  and then kept looking at it at different angles under my light-came up with this almost deep purple/straw color darker pink...I don't even have a name for it. So I tried to duplicate what I had done on the minute hand and although not identical, came up very close. They look great but I don't know where to put em! Not sure where we can purchase-hands I've discovered to be inherently spendy. Blued hands even more. If you find a place let me know. I just bought a fair size lot of pocket hands coming for future projects. Keep us posted and have fun. Oh yeah-I find screws even easier because of more material. Gives you more time/less stress to get to the desired shade of whichever. Not as touchy! Just remember-use that easy flame. My favorite shade I call electric or ocean blue. 

[dpn]

Again, that's awesome info! 

I'll admit to being disappointed when I received an elabore-grade ETA 6498-1 -- only the tops of the screws were blue, and it certainly wasn't a heat blue.

I saw a purple color referred to as "Illinois Plum" in another hand bluing thread I found. It sounds gorgeous!

[MechanicMike]

Ugh- I always think of something else after I type....another thing about bluing is if you didn't get the color you wanted, you may be able to remove it by a light pressure with super fine grit of emory paper and a drop of oil, emory board(nail files) or a slip. Secure the hand on a piece of pithwood and hold in place with a sharpened piece of peg wood or similar. Give a couple strokes with the abrasive till shiny or close to it and you're ready for another go with your flame.this is a last resort/repair tho. Too many attempts start to mess with the temperament of the steel. Use caution! Just another something to tinker with!

[MechanicMike]

4 minutes ago, dpn said:

Again, that's awesome info! 

I'll admit to being disappointed when I received an elabore-grade ETA 6498-1 -- only the tops of the screws were blue, and it certainly wasn't a heat blue.

I saw a purple color referred to as "Illinois Plum" in another hand bluing thread I found. It sounds gorgeous!

Ah yes. The downside of mass production I would think. Kinda like the military-you don't have to taste your chow, just get it down and in. Another reason to do your own, right? Illinois Plum, eh? Well now, I'll just be looking that up here in the next few minutes if I do say so myself. Thanks for the tip! Never heard of it!

[MechanicMike]

I wouldn't even have a clue how just the heads of the screws have color? Induction? Physical barrier? Hmmm..another mystery to uncover.

[dpn]

17 minutes ago, MechanicMike said:

I wouldn't even have a clue how just the heads of the screws have color? Induction? Physical barrier? Hmmm..another mystery to uncover.

I'm pretty sure it's just blue varnish on top.

[dpn]

23 minutes ago, MechanicMike said:

Illinois Plum, eh? Well now, I'll just be looking that up here in the next few minutes if I do say so myself. Thanks for the tip! Never heard of it!

Here are some threads from other forums that had a ton of great information on hand bluing, including a discussion of the plum color. I'd need to refresh myself on the specifics, but I believe one of the American pocket watch manufacturers used that purple as a signature, before getting hands to blue-blue became the standard.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/bluing-pocket-watch-hands-marty-b.156600/ (I really recommend this link -- lots of great photos and trial-and-error progress photos from someone.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/how-to-blue-hands.33823/

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/illinois-plum-hands.71211/

Here are a couple photos of "plum" and "wine" hands:

 

 

[HSL]

30 minutes ago, MechanicMike said:

I wouldn't even have a clue how just the heads of the screws have color? Induction? Physical barrier? Hmmm..another mystery to uncover.

My guess is that they just have been subjected to chemical bluening .. there are some stuff at ebay one can use.
Just search on "Cold Bluing Chemicals" or similar and you should get results like ..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bluing-solution-Cold-immersion-bluing-agent/224039720684?hash=item3429ced6ec:g:NfMAAOSwUd9afHHo

Edited July 12, 2020 by HSL

[MechanicMike]

1 hour ago, dpn said:

I'm pretty sure it's just blue varnish on top.

I wonder if it's the same liquid stuff they use to blue firearms?

[MechanicMike]

1 hour ago, dpn said:

Here are some threads from other forums that had a ton of great information on hand bluing, including a discussion of the plum color. I'd need to refresh myself on the specifics, but I believe one of the American pocket watch manufacturers used that purple as a signature, before getting hands to blue-blue became the standard.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/bluing-pocket-watch-hands-marty-b.156600/ (I really recommend this link -- lots of great photos and trial-and-error progress photos from someone.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/how-to-blue-hands.33823/

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/illinois-plum-hands.71211/

Here are a couple photos of "plum" and "wine" hands:

 

 

Wow! Mine look more purple but yeah I've never seen this before. 

[MechanicMike]

1 hour ago, HSL said:

My guess is that they just have been subjected to chemical bluening .. there are some stuff at ebay one can use.
Just search on "Cold Bluing Chemicals" or similar and you should get results like ..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bluing-solution-Cold-immersion-bluing-agent/224039720684?hash=item3429ced6ec:g:NfMAAOSwUd9afHHo

>thinking< would or could we apply this stuff to our stuff? I dunno I think it just loses something. Traditional? Learned skills and the fun of it maybe? Applying chemicals and heat treating to achieve colors....do you even get the same results? Is it the same? I'm not sure if I would do this? 

[HSL]

7 hours ago, MechanicMike said:

would or could we apply this stuff to our stuff? I dunno I think it just loses something. Traditional?

Yes it's probably the cheapest way to color metal these days.
I still use the traditional way since I'm in no hurry and have no cost aspects in the sence for example chinese volume producers have.
It also is quite cool to se when the metal turns blue when it reaches around 300 degrees celsius.

[MechanicMike]

13 hours ago, HSL said:

Yes it's probably the cheapest way to color metal these days.
I still use the traditional way since I'm in no hurry and have no cost aspects in the sence for example chinese volume producers have.
It also is quite cool to se when the metal turns blue when it reaches around 300 degrees celsius.

Agreed

[dpn]

If anyone is curious, there's a great thread on the NAWCC forum on this subject of heat-bluing hands. Marty, who sells NOS blued hands as well as hands he has recovered and blued, has shared a lot of tips with me. He's friendly, approachable, and has freely shared some great information.

After doing more research, I've concluded that it's darn near impossible to find inexpensive steel hands in wrist watch sizes that would be suitable for heat-bluing. Esslinger tells me that all of their Swiss-manufactured hands are treated brass, not steel. I think one either needs to buy a laser cutter, cut hands out of a thin sheet of high-carbon steel, and then manually solder or otherwise connect a small brass tube of the correct diameter (as described in this excellent blog post from Anordain Watches in Scotland), or work with Ickler.de or a Chinese factory to have a small run of hands produced to one's specifications. Neither approach is reasonable for a mere hobbyist.

The best approach that I can see is finding pocket watch hands that are either the correct height and diameter, or that can be modified to be the correct height and diameter. I'm researching this further. I have a mishmash of 100 pocket want hands coming from eBay, and will be sizing them with a Bergeon gauge and a micrometer in the hope that I can get a couple of sets of matching hands.

If anyone is curious, here's where I am on my hand bluing progress:

1) I've built a really ugly brass heating tray. It's too ugly to share publicly, as I built it out of brass sheet that was far too thick to be shaped easily. As someone who is entirely self-taught, having no relatives interested in metalworking and having taken no shop classes in school, basic metalwork is a challenge. I'm in the process of making my second attempt at a heating tray using far thinner brass (0.025" thick instead of 0.125" thick).

2) I've got several ounces of brass scarf, both propane and butane torches, and an infrared thermometer that should hopefully get me in the ballpark.

3) As previously mentioned, I have an assortment of 100 steel pocket watch hands en route from eBay to start to practice with.

4) Once I get the hands, I'll be disposing of any radium hands I receive and starting to strip and polish good candidates for heat-bluing.

I'll share my progress photos, etc.

[dpn]

Quick update: I'm documenting my progress on the NAWCC forum, but I've been able to (unevenly) blue some hands. I've got a long way to go, but I'm really looking forward to continuing to improve!

[Nucejoe]

18 minutes ago, dpn said:

Quick update: I'm documenting my progress on the NAWCC forum, but I've been able to (unevenly) blue some hands. I've got a long way to go, but I'm really looking forward to continuing to improve!

Hi Dan, What good would blueing do? just aestetic significane?  or colour lasts longer, wont whipe off? hardens the metal?  have some catalougues, bereguet for one, that show and seem to take great pride in craftsmanship that goes into such heat treatment, but don't understand the significance of it. Red your first post and understand you need to make you a set, but you seem to have taken further interest in the subject. 

[dpn]

Mostly its aesthetics, but the bluing provides corrosion protection.

A lot of really old watches have blued hands that have gone black with time, and it'll be fun to restore them.

Long term: I'm working on some custom watch projects, and would love to be able to sell hands that I've blued, or custom watches with certain blued components.

[Nucejoe]

1 minute ago, dpn said:

Mostly its aesthetics, but the bluing provides corrosion protection.

A lot of really old watches have blued hands that have gone black with time, and it'll be fun to restore them.

Long term: I'm working on some custom watch projects, and would love to be able to sell hands that I've blued, or custom watches with certain blued components.

oh, corrosion protection is good enough reason. worth all the work that go in it.

[dpn]

Mostly it's just a lot of fun, and a very inexpensive way to practice an old horological technique.