Looking to try servicing an old movement

[tcabot]

Hi All.

I would appreciate some advice for a complete newbie on getting into watch servicing - nothing serious,  just as a fun project.

I've got a thing for hand-wound watches and would like to bring an old watch (or two) back to life, so looking to learn to do a strip-clean-oil-assemble cycle.

 

I've toyed with this idea in the past (years ago) and picked up a couple candidates to learn on, but never found the time for them. 

One is an old Ingersoll, swiss-made 17 jewels. It seems to wind and tick. Casing, dial, glass are in great shape, so looks like a good candidate to me for the first service.

The other is a Benrus DR23. It winds and makes a few reluctant ticks, but then seems to stop. Casing looks like a complete gonner, and the dial is in pretty poor shape too. If the movement is not broken and just needs a service, I wonder if there's any possibility of getting a cheapo Chinese casing & dial to fit this movement in, or is it extremely unlikely to be the right size?

 

For a start, I want to strip & assemble a movement, perhaps a dozen times to build up the basic parts handling skills.

I see that online advice is to buy a Chinese-made ST36 for this purpose. Can I just go at the Benrus or Ingersoll instead, or does it make more sense to get a cheap ST for this?

Thank you.

 

 

[Kalanag]

Welcome to the WRT-Forum!

Sorry to say it, but you’re very likely to break or lose something when servicing a wristwatch for the first time — I’ve been there! So, if these watches have any value to you, don’t attempt to service them as a beginner.

Edited 14 hours ago by Kalanag

[AndyGSi]

Welcome to the forum.

You're best starting with something that you know runs well and keeps good time.

That way when you've stripped and service it, any problems are due to something you've done.

[tcabot]

Thank you.

No value to me, and I guess not much value to anyone else either - just practice fodder as far as I see them. Ingersoll might make a nice watch to wear if I manage to service it. Benrus, I suspect, is too far gone in terms of case and dial - no cheap ways of getting them to decent looking condition?

I wonder how these old movements compare to modern Chinese ones? Probably not favourably, even if there's nothing broken in them? Progress moves on?

I've got an old Slava that I'm quite attached to, so I won't be learning on that one.

[watchweasol]

Hello welcome to the forum.   I have added a couple of documents you may find worth reading

TZIllustratedGlossary.pdf TM 9-1575.pdf

[Nucejoe]

Welcome to the WRT forum. 

 Both pieces are worth TLC, they don't make them like these anymore, so you are looking at a limited available quantity. I suggest working on them when you have acquired good dexterity and experience.

 Chinese keep making same chunk= junk and  love to see you break them, so to sell you another one, the fact that  they don't sell spare parts supports the point of my arguement. 

 If you are buying now, why not buy two Swiss scraps of the SAME CALIBER in need of repair, such that a good running one can be made out of the two, plus,  you will have your own spare parts inventory, well sorta.

Keep us posted when choosing scraps  and ask questions, no $  charge for advice.

 No shortage of help and advice here, we'll work with you till your rebuild one ticks happy and accurate.

Regs

 

 

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Hello welcome to the forum.   I have added a couple of documents you may find worth reading

TZIllustratedGlossary.pdf 4.2 MB · 1 download TM 9-1575.pdf 14.25 MB · 1 download

The War Department recommends Elgin M-56A oil.  Elgin later came out with M-56B which is better.  You will find the Elgin M-56B in cool "one-drop" bottles on ebay for under $20.  Get one and discipline yourself not to read any threads on "what oil should I buy."

Get a brand new set of Bergeon screwdrivers

They are not that expensive.

Get a pair of Dumont #3 tweezers.  If you were a boy scout and no how to sharpen a knife, find a pair of Dumont #3 on ebay that is in reasonably good shape and buy them--they are better.  Then dress them with a stone using your boy-scout skills.

Once you become a skilled amateur, you will be confident to invest several thousand dollars in the 14 different Mobius oils that the experts recommend (SARC).

 

3 hours ago, tcabot said:

One is an old Ingersoll

I would not practice on the Ingersoll for two reasons: 1) it is constructed a little different than your typical Swiss watch, and 2) (more importantly) it is a very cool watch!  Later on, I would fix it and wear it.

[tcabot]

Thank you very much for the very helpful info, folks. A lot of reading to do!

I do like the look of that ingersoll.

I am in the UK, so I think moebius is more readily available than Elgin. I hear 8000 does the trick as a jack of all trades.

Given the rather sorry state of the Benrus, if I get the movement to run (If wound, it ticks for about 2-5 seconds then stops. Give it a tap, it ruins again, then stops again), What are the chances that I'll be able to fit it into an ST36 case (perhaps with a 3d-printed adapter)? I don't think I'll have the spare cash to invest in case re-plating and dial re-finishing!

I would really appreciate some info/links on how to clean the parts: is it achievable without a ultrasonic cleaner, or am I better off buying one and not wasting my time?

Also, can I get away with a timegrapher app on pc/phone?

[mbwatch]

13 minutes ago, tcabot said:

Given the rather sorry state of the Benrus, if I get the movement to run (If wound, it ticks for about 2-5 seconds then stops. Give it a tap, it ruins again, then stops again), What are the chances that I'll be able to fit it into an ST36 case (perhaps with a 3d-printed adapter)? I don't think I'll have the spare cash to invest in case re-plating and dial re-finishing!

Chances of fitting that movement into a modern case with pleasing results are not good unfortunately. Dial size, pinion height, the position of the stem relative to the thickness of the movement all play a role, so cases made for a specific movement are really only workable for that movement. If you have a lot of skill in 3D modeling you might find a way to make it work, but it would be a significant challenge.

A case made for an ST36 would be gigantic in relation to the Benrus movement. A case made for something like a Seiko NH35 would be closer to a workable diameter, but most of those modern cases are made for automatic movements that are much thicker than vintage hand wound movements.

Edited 10 hours ago by mbwatch

[LittleWatchShop]

12 minutes ago, tcabot said:

is it achievable without a ultrasonic cleaner,

Yes, however, as you are just starting out, you can progress using Ronsonol lighter fluid (or equiv) to clean.  Use pegwood to clean all pivot bearings.

14 minutes ago, tcabot said:

Also, can I get away with a timegrapher app on pc/phone

Yes.  Some disagree with me.  I have many hundreds of dollars invested in multiple time graphers and vintage timing machines.  The phone app is just fine for a beginner.

16 minutes ago, tcabot said:

If wound, it ticks for about 2-5 seconds then stops

Probably just needs a good cleaning.

16 minutes ago, tcabot said:

What are the chances that I'll be able to fit it into an ST36 case

My SWAG, is slim to none unless you own a 3D printer and can design and print a spacer

5 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

23 minutes ago, tcabot said:

What are the chances that I'll be able to fit it into an ST36 case

My SWAG, is slim to none unless you own a 3D printer and can design and print a spacer

Here is a re-cased Mickey Mouse watch I made using 3D printer...lol!!

[tcabot]

Thank you very much for being extremely helpful and patient.

I know a guy who can 3dprint, I can design a spacer I guess.

For cleaning with the lighter fluid, is it entirely done by hand, or do I need a jig (spinner?). Any informative links appreciated!

Would you have any suggestions for the app? I'll test it on my Slava.

[tomh207]

Have a look here, quite a good video about cleaning without a machine 

 

 

Tom

[LittleWatchShop]

4 hours ago, tcabot said:

I know a guy who can 3dprint, I can design a spacer I guess

I suggest FreeCAD as the tool to use for 3D design. It is free open source.

For Android phones, I use "Watch Accuracy Timer"

For cleaning, just get a glass dish and soak the movement parts in fluid.  Dry on lint free paper under an incandescent lamp.

Once you decide to invest in the hobby, there are many ideas for DIY cleaning machines and chemicals.  I use traditional spin machines and the expensive L&R fluids.  I have invested $$$$$$ into this "hobby" but I have the means to do crazy stuff.

4 hours ago, tomh207 said:

Have a look here, quite a good video about cleaning without a machine 

I do exactly what he does for rinse.  I use the L&R Master designed for two rinse jars PLUS an extra rinse jar.  Great video

Edited 5 hours ago by LittleWatchShop

[AndyGSi]

As you're in the UK I suggest you look at Cousins for screwdriver sets as they've never cause me any problems.

The key is the right blade, dressed correctly to suit the screw.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/cousins-swiss-style-sets-rotating-stands

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/value-screwdriver-sets-wooden-cases

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/cousins-swiss-style-flat-stainless-steel

[Neverenoughwatches]

I'm in the " crack on with what you have " camp. Since you are in the Uk Ingersolls are plentiful, mostly the Great Britain models, but the Swiss made ones are still fairly common on Ebay. The New Chinese clones, were difficult to get parts for.......I'm not sure if they still are, the quality wasn't that great either when it came to things like shock springs. Another complete watch same model Ingersoll will probably set you back less that a couple of clone parts that you will almost certainly lose or break. I never took apart a new working movement, I don't believe it held back my learning at all, in fact quite the opposite.

[tcabot]

Thanks for the timing app suggestion. Still need to figure out how to use it properly, but face up Slava shows +5 sec/day and Ingersoll is -130 sec/day.

I am guessing that tiny ultrasonic baths are no good for cleaning watch parts? Link to a £5 jobbie

For UK specifically, what are our options for re-plating cases, restoring dials and buying replacement glass? Esp for cases, are there any friendly businesses that do a good price for replating a watch? Say, you can get quoted £450 for professional respray of a steel bike frame, but if you know the right guy in the industry, you can get it done for £90.

Plenty of Ingersolls around, true.

[AndyGSi]

The ultrasonic would be better than nothing and looks like it should hold some small kind of jars for placing the parts in.

Dial restoration is very specialised and only worth considering on expensive watches, although some people prefer them with original patina.

Again re-plating would be an expensive last resort and not worth considering on most watches unless you're able to do it yourself.

Your best just trying to buff the case yourself.

Crystals are readily available from the likes of Cousins here in the UK.

Edit

Here's a Sekonda I've just polished up a bit.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by AndyGSi

[mbwatch]

42 minutes ago, tcabot said:

I am guessing that tiny ultrasonic baths are no good for cleaning watch parts? Link to a £5 jobbie

I used a small ultrasonic for years until it died, but it does need to be large enough to fit jars in to hold your parts, and small parts ideally are in mesh baskets within the jars so you are not fishing them out one by one with tweezers. So the one you linked might be too small and this kind of thing really the minimum workable size