Where to get ELMA cleaning machine restoration help?

[AndyGSi]

2 hours ago, Bigjay said:

I think i’m definitely going to get it all taken out and find someone to rewire it for me.  I can cope with the cosmetics but the electrics im not willing to risk!! I’m so desperate to have a working machine… i love this hobby! 

Where in the UK are you?

[Bigjay]

3 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Where in the UK are you?

Thanks Andy, I won’t be removing anything.  Will take it as is and ask for the rewiring to be done.  I am in Hertfordshire, about 40miles north of London.

[AndyGSi]

31 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

Thanks Andy, I won’t be removing anything.  Will take it as is and ask for the rewiring to be done.  I am in Hertfordshire, about 40miles north of London.

OK, too far for me to consider then.

[tomh207]

The diagram isn’t quite right either as it doesn’t have the heater switch and neon on it

sorry, I’m too far away as well 

 

Tom

[AndyGSi]

40 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

The diagram isn’t quite right either as it doesn’t have the heater switch and neon on it

sorry, I’m too far away as well 

 

Tom

Heater Switch & Neon are both in the diagram.

[tomh207]

13 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Heater Switch & Neon are both in the diagram.

Thanks Andy, must not be switched on myself tonight

 

Tom

[praezis]

I find this discussion rather confusing, esp. for the OP.

Imo his picture of the wires coming from the machine correspond exactly with the posted schematic. I can see nothing wrong on wiring of the machine side.

Just the kind of connecting those to the extension cable is questionable, anything but pro, but would be functional (assuming both red wires are protective earth). 

I would just replace plug with cable where protective ground is yellow/green and use proper connecting terminals, proper strain relief.

Frank

[AndyGSi]

29 minutes ago, praezis said:

I find this discussion rather confusing, esp. for the OP.

Imo his picture of the wires coming from the machine correspond exactly with the posted schematic. I can see nothing wrong on wiring of the machine side.

Just the kind of connecting those to the extension cable is questionable, anything but pro, but would be functional (assuming both red wires are protective earth). 

I would just replace plug with cable where protective ground is yellow/green and use proper connecting terminals, proper strain relief.

Frank

That maybe sufficient to test the operation of the machine but due to lack of earthing and unknown condition of
the insulation along with the individual cores to the motor a rewire would be the only way to ensure safe use.

If it is to be powered up then it needs to be on a variac with current monitoring to slowly increase the voltage.

Edit

Also before power is put anywhere near it the heater, motor and rheostat should be checked for any shorts.

Edited November 9, 2024 by AndyGSi

[praezis]

22 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

… but due to lack of earthing …

Andy, where do you see a lack of earthing? I don‘t.

Frank

[AndyGSi]

37 minutes ago, praezis said:

Andy, where do you see a lack of earthing? I don‘t.

Frank

Looking at others the only earth appears to the top of the rheostat so the base, control housing
and motor cover are all relying on bolts and touch contact for earthing which isn't adequate.

The earth to the rheostat doesn't even appear to be their on the OPs.

Edit

The above photo is a clip from the YouTube video.

Edited November 10, 2024 by AndyGSi

[AnthonyCarey]

I couldn't find a small appliance electrician when I was looking at my wiring (Devon, U.K.) so I just put it back as it was. I didn't do a rewire as such, I simply removed the wiring in order to clean the machine. But my issue was that the motor had an earth wire going to it which was deliberately cut off at the motor end. Someone saw a post of mine on Facebook and we swapped notes, as he was doing the same. It appears that there is no earth going to the motor, so I'm guessing that the person who rewired mine (it had UK colour coded wiring) didn't have any two core wire and simply used the three core but cut the earth off!  Mine is working fully now, so it seems that I got it right!

[AndyGSi]

23 minutes ago, AnthonyCarey said:

I couldn't find a small appliance electrician when I was looking at my wiring (Devon, U.K.) so I just put it back as it was. I didn't do a rewire as such, I simply removed the wiring in order to clean the machine. But my issue was that the motor had an earth wire going to it which was deliberately cut off at the motor end. Someone saw a post of mine on Facebook and we swapped notes, as he was doing the same. It appears that there is no earth going to the motor, so I'm guessing that the person who rewired mine (it had UK colour coded wiring) didn't have any two core wire and simply used the three core but cut the earth off!  Mine is working fully now, so it seems that I got it right!

Happy that it's working but getting it right and it being safe are different things.

Each metal part should have its own earth as currently if there's a short at the motor for
example and the case becomes live the only path to earth would be you when you touch it.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

Hope you have rcd protection behind that cable. 

You'll get a belt but not enough to kill you, unless you're wearing a pacemaker. 

[Bigjay]

Hi all, back again with a few questions…. I am back on re: trying to figure out the rewiring of this Elma super elite machine. @AndyGSi provided a wiring diagram and quite rightly pointed out that my machine did not have an earth to the rheostat like some others.  You may remember the photos of the dodgy extension of the power cable from 4 core to 3 core and I have since discovered that the previous owner had marked the grey wire as the ‘earth’ with a little sticker!! In the provided wiring diagram the grey wire is marked neutral and I seem to remember someone commenting that in the original german wiring, the red wire was the earth!! Now im starting to think that my machine MAY be wired up completely incorrectly and that the way forward is to ignore the existing wiring and start again with completely new wiring and follow the diagram??  Does anyone think this is a bad idea?  If not, should I buy new 4 core cable and follow the diagram or use the normal 3 core UK standard cable??  
Secondly, where would the experts here connect the earth as the wiring diagram does not make that clear.

If someone was minded to draw me an even easier to follow idiots diagram with more detail, then I would be eternally grateful!! 
I think i would be minded to replace the switches and replace the bulb for an led one.  The heater plate, I can replace with a modern direct replacement from HS Walsh too. 
Your advice and guidance is greatly appreciated!!

[AndyGSi]

15 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

Hi all, back again with a few questions…. I am back on re: trying to figure out the rewiring of this Elma super elite machine. @AndyGSi provided a wiring diagram and quite rightly pointed out that my machine did not have an earth to the rheostat like some others.  You may remember the photos of the dodgy extension of the power cable from 4 core to 3 core and I have since discovered that the previous owner had marked the grey wire as the ‘earth’ with a little sticker!! In the provided wiring diagram the grey wire is marked neutral and I seem to remember someone commenting that in the original german wiring, the red wire was the earth!! Now im starting to think that my machine MAY be wired up completely incorrectly and that the way forward is to ignore the existing wiring and start again with completely new wiring and follow the diagram??  Does anyone think this is a bad idea?  If not, should I buy new 4 core cable and follow the diagram or use the normal 3 core UK standard cable??  
Secondly, where would the experts here connect the earth as the wiring diagram does not make that clear.

If someone was minded to draw me an even easier to follow idiots diagram with more detail, then I would be eternally grateful!! 
I think i would be minded to replace the switches and replace the bulb for an led one.  The heater plate, I can replace with a modern direct replacement from HS Walsh too. 
Your advice and guidance is greatly appreciated!!

My suggestion would be to rewire from scratch.

You're best just using 3 core mains flex and then use this type of connector in the base.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/lever-splice-connector-221-413-terminal/dp/B0744BG6FR?crid=Z9OCYHATWX61&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.li-z2OlSrWEmL8WFRdSZWq51-SCkLY1U3s5NZfnMDRJPeu9A7tKHPvNBLEID1ZzWlHlkf-tqangnjIfvxKs3tg4u0ayjqdLJce2-_eKE87GzWqSZBvPe6a1TkuiZ9PqW41Fqk6hKZ8NazXdPw776_9iFPBTvXo68wo10yPOu9fzElkfEoKnwLOEqGhTK9QvAID8sD_d8lmFld2XZ2Tc5rJapCJUP9T6d3jtADR5YigtvLjd3Uvyf1jkkdYbIPTCPtuJ5VoQjtPuvoNl-ceUS3HcIYX-ATiSEd8BjjvRFkm0.pvOGRr6_3pv6r-zhPl_EwgntlIkZIye-e2egc4UWHQw&dib_tag=se&keywords=wago+connectors&nsdOptOutParam=true&qid=1733241483&sprefix=wago+connectors%2Caps%2C119&sr=8-7

I'll see if I can knock up a bit of a sketch but not sure where you'll be able to connect the earths?

 

 

[RichardHarris123]

Couldn't the case be drilled and tapped or drilled though to connect an earth? I realise that drilling though will change the aesthetics. 

[SwissSeiko]

To others that are looking at this and wondering if its worth the effort, only you can answer that question. But, I have written some basic code to build one of these machines, for fairly cheap, with a stepper motor, driver, and an arduino. Whole thing can be built for around $100-150. I can start a new thread if interested. The plus side, is it can be expanded and updated to whatever you might like it to do. Right now, I have it set up to have 3 buttons, one for starting the cleaning, one for a spin cycle, and one for a drying cycle. I am working on adding a linear Z-axis, so that the cleaning and spinning are automated. Eventually, ill have a turntable axis as well, so all the cycles can be completed with the push of 1 button.

[tomh207]

@SwissSeiko that sounds really interesting, would love to see the design and it working 

 

Tom

[Bigjay]

5 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

My suggestion would be to rewire from scratch.

You're best just using 3 core mains flex and then use this type of connector in the base.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/lever-splice-connector-221-413-terminal/dp/B0744BG6FR?crid=Z9OCYHATWX61&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.li-z2OlSrWEmL8WFRdSZWq51-SCkLY1U3s5NZfnMDRJPeu9A7tKHPvNBLEID1ZzWlHlkf-tqangnjIfvxKs3tg4u0ayjqdLJce2-_eKE87GzWqSZBvPe6a1TkuiZ9PqW41Fqk6hKZ8NazXdPw776_9iFPBTvXo68wo10yPOu9fzElkfEoKnwLOEqGhTK9QvAID8sD_d8lmFld2XZ2Tc5rJapCJUP9T6d3jtADR5YigtvLjd3Uvyf1jkkdYbIPTCPtuJ5VoQjtPuvoNl-ceUS3HcIYX-ATiSEd8BjjvRFkm0.pvOGRr6_3pv6r-zhPl_EwgntlIkZIye-e2egc4UWHQw&dib_tag=se&keywords=wago+connectors&nsdOptOutParam=true&qid=1733241483&sprefix=wago+connectors%2Caps%2C119&sr=8-7

I'll see if I can knock up a bit of a sketch but not sure where you'll be able to connect the earths?

 

 

Thanks Andy, any help would be appreciated.  I can always upload some photos as I progress if you dont mind checking that it is consistent with what you think the wiring should look like.  And i’ll be sure to photograph everything before I remove it just for interest if nothing else!  Cheers Jason.

4 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

To others that are looking at this and wondering if its worth the effort, only you can answer that question. But, I have written some basic code to build one of these machines, for fairly cheap, with a stepper motor, driver, and an arduino. Whole thing can be built for around $100-150. I can start a new thread if interested. The plus side, is it can be expanded and updated to whatever you might like it to do. Right now, I have it set up to have 3 buttons, one for starting the cleaning, one for a spin cycle, and one for a drying cycle. I am working on adding a linear Z-axis, so that the cleaning and spinning are automated. Eventually, ill have a turntable axis as well, so all the cycles can be completed with the push of 1 button.

I definitely think its worth the effort to try keeping these vintage machines going but i’d be interested to see your project too.

[AndyGSi]

This should give you a better idea how to wire it with UK colours but you'll need to find some way to mark the different wires, in particular the Blue.

If you haven't got an RCD on your house sockets you'll also be best getting a plug in RCD adapter to be safe.

To do a proper job you'll be best getting something like this to finish the wire ends correctly.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Crimping-0-25-10mm²-Connectors-Self-Adjustable-Electrical/dp/B0D2HJK5LN?crid=3KS5V4GVEJYXL&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.QvQtOZl3bEOqoKSFE8CKb-5WsRBEQSXO3fewBHP8nbjFaYr99yiexGuN2m4OLWwoq7wL-jiBQ4qQEXbR_B5P7hPTkiu9fskzZ5ac4-y_3wcPQJtfgvJ0GrW5dyjvi5CC3K3g-L_AW2MlNPbw8AyM8OSn2hUprm5FW9EFLtM4_qqLH-tMgAO0mxtZVmaBuCikjdL-Ltnj7v4kLHafM066ziFGMCuaaAMTTFxoeFiudAuXTIe88gRcQPdlF147vWKipa7PLsy-YY4i-mEWOLG8xptBFe44hlNZj36VosaC5gE.3PbGRMSecaFgYMc0hAqr8B2YgHjRShICuDHs9G6bguc&dib_tag=se&keywords=bootlace+crimp+tool&nsdOptOutParam=true&qid=1733265543&sprefix=bootlace+crimp+tool%2Caps%2C105&sr=8-9

 

Elma Wiring Diagram.pdf

[SwissSeiko]

22 hours ago, tomh207 said:

@SwissSeiko that sounds really interesting, would love to see the design and it working 

18 hours ago, Bigjay said:

I definitely think its worth the effort to try keeping these vintage machines going but i’d be interested to see your project too.

 

Last night I spent some time making additional code to add the linear Z axis. So far it appears to be working(simulated) well. I've also eliminated 2 of the buttons, and automated the entire cleaning and spinning cycle. I've no way to simulated a drying step in the form of a heater and fan on the software I'm using, so that will need to be done once I order the parts. Once I finalize everything in the code, like adding a limit switch for the Z axis, ill order the parts, complete the build, and post it here. So far, I'm at around $120USD for the build, without frame, but with the Z axis. Removing the Z axis, the cost is around $70USD without the frame. This does not include jars or basket costs though. 

Edited December 4, 2024 by SwissSeiko

[Bigjay]

19 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

This should give you a better idea how to wire it with UK colours but you'll need to find some way to mark the different wires, in particular the Blue.

If you haven't got an RCD on your house sockets you'll also be best getting a plug in RCD adapter to be safe.

To do a proper job you'll be best getting something like this to finish the wire ends correctly.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Crimping-0-25-10mm²-Connectors-Self-Adjustable-Electrical/dp/B0D2HJK5LN?crid=3KS5V4GVEJYXL&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.QvQtOZl3bEOqoKSFE8CKb-5WsRBEQSXO3fewBHP8nbjFaYr99yiexGuN2m4OLWwoq7wL-jiBQ4qQEXbR_B5P7hPTkiu9fskzZ5ac4-y_3wcPQJtfgvJ0GrW5dyjvi5CC3K3g-L_AW2MlNPbw8AyM8OSn2hUprm5FW9EFLtM4_qqLH-tMgAO0mxtZVmaBuCikjdL-Ltnj7v4kLHafM066ziFGMCuaaAMTTFxoeFiudAuXTIe88gRcQPdlF147vWKipa7PLsy-YY4i-mEWOLG8xptBFe44hlNZj36VosaC5gE.3PbGRMSecaFgYMc0hAqr8B2YgHjRShICuDHs9G6bguc&dib_tag=se&keywords=bootlace+crimp+tool&nsdOptOutParam=true&qid=1733265543&sprefix=bootlace+crimp+tool%2Caps%2C105&sr=8-9

 

Elma Wiring Diagram.pdf 37.46 kB · 3 downloads

That is fantastic!! Thanks so much Andy!! You legend! Regards Jason! 

[AndyGSi]

57 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

That is fantastic!! Thanks so much Andy!! You legend! Regards Jason! 

If you need anything else and don't want to post here then just PM me.